MARIOLATRY

[Priscilla]

I have BIG problems with the worship/praying to Mary. All nations will call her blessed - but that doesn't mean to worship her.

I hope I do not offend anyone; please forgive me, but I as much as I love and respect Mary, I find it impossible to pray to her or worship her for the following reasons:

1) She is dead - just like all the other saints awaiting resurrection

2) There is NOTHING in Scripture commanding us to pray/worship her, or that she has an intercessory role. The idea that she "intercedes" is man-made.

3) It is idolatry to kiss/worship/pray tot he dead or a statue

4) As pure and holy a woman she was, she still needed a Saviour which she clearly stated in her beautiful prayer "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOUR" Mary needed a Saviour.

[cmotherofpirl]

WE don't worship Mary.

Worship [latria] is for God alone.
Veneration [dulia] is for people who have madfe it to heaven.

Mary is in heaven and therefore can pray for all of us. The word pray means to ask intercession from. So when we pray to Mary we ask her to pray for us or ask God for something we are praying for as well.

Of course she needed a SAvior.

Edited April 4, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Azriel]

[hijack] Welcome Priscilla. I'm positive if you stick around, you'll learn that a lot of what you think the Catholic Church is/does, is not true. And there are plenty of great folks here that will give you the scoop on the Truth.[/hijack]

[Priscilla]

But I see Catholics kissing the feet of Mary statues - if that's not worship, what is?

What is your definition of worship then? latreuo (which means to "serve") yes: but is it not actually "proskuneo" (to prostrate oneself in homage) which is the true worship for God alone?

Why have an idol of Mary at all then if it is not to worship it?

The Charismatic RCs don't pray or venerate Mary at all: so it is not an unCatholic thing not to adhere to this tradition?

And what if you believe Mary is dead (as I do): - we are told in Scripture not to pray to the dead or to even contact them. I've got a big problem then haven't I?

Surely the Lord Jesus Christ is our Mediator and High Priest? - we don't need any "Queen of Heaven" to intercede for us? I do not see that we need that in Scripture.

I believe in the Resurrection of the body when our Lord returns to earth. If we die before He returns to earth - then we sleep the sleep of death until He awakes us at the last Trumpet.

The idea of immortal souls is a pagan one, surely?

[MC Just]

Priscilla, explain to me why the sciptures say Mary's "Soul" Magnifies the Lord. Look up the definition of Magnify.

Catholics believe that Mary helps us see and know the Lord in a Much larger view and understanding. What esle does "Magnify" mean??

The Scriptures also say that not everything Jesus taught was written down. Maybe that will help you understand why you see Catholics doing all these things you dont see in the scriptures? Although many of these things if not all are Biblical.

Stick around here you'll learn a lot.

Edited April 4, 2005 by MC Just

[thicke]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 12:42 PM']I have BIG problems with the worship/praying to Mary.  All nations will call her blessed - but that doesn't mean to worship her.  [/quote]

I don't know anyone who worships Mary, not in the way you define the word. I praise her and thank her for being the vessel that Christ came into the world.

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 12:42 PM']I hope I do not offend anyone;  please forgive me, but I as much as I love and respect Mary,  I find it impossible to pray to her or worship her for the following reasons:[/quote]

Don't worry about offending. I've heard worse. At least your attitude in seeking answers in Christ-like.

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 12:42 PM']1)  She is dead - just like all the other saints awaiting resurrection[/quote]

Well, she may have experienced a physical death on this Earth (note I say may have, no one knows for sure). But even so, she's not really dead. She's alive in Christ in Heaven.

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 12:42 PM']2)  There is NOTHING in Scripture commanding us to pray/worship her, or that she has an intercessory role.  The idea that she "intercedes" is man-made.[/quote]

Not true. If you look at the wedding in Cana in John 2:1:

[quote]2 And Jesus also was invited, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye. [/quote]

She is fulfilling an intercessory role here on behalf of the wedding party. Not only that, but he does it even though it's not his time to reveal himself. Think about it. The first public miracle that Jesus performs was at the request of Mary. Remember that she says "Do whatever he tells you". That's good advice for all of us.

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 12:42 PM']3)  It is idolatry to kiss/worship/pray tot he dead or a statue[/quote]

HM......I like what Saint Paul has to say about idolatry in Rom 1:21-25:

[quote]21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 For professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses. 23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of fourfooted beasts, and of creeping things.
[/quote]

Now does that sound like anything you've ever seen anyone do with regard to Mary?

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 12:42 PM']4)  As pure and holy a woman she was, she still needed a Saviour which she clearly stated in her beautiful prayer "My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in GOD MY SAVIOUR"  Mary needed a Saviour.[/quote]
I know of no one that disputes this. It is by the power of God that Mary was saved too, not by her own power. Most Protestants have a problem with this because of the time line, Mary's Immaculate Conception happening before our Lord's death and resurrection. If this is your main issue, I have to ask why you would think an omnipotent God is bound by his own creation, that thing we call "time".


Please Priscilla, keep asking questions! God bless!

[Priscilla]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:19 PM'] Priscilla, explain to me why the sciptures say Mary's "Soul" Magnifies the Lord. Look up the definition of Magnify.

[/quote]
It's the Greek word "megaluno" (Strongs 3170) meaning to make great, ie increase or (fig.) extol - enlarge, magnify shew great.

I believe Mary did that withing her inner being at that precious time of joy when she met Elizabeth.

[quote]Catholics believe that Mary helps us see and know the Lord in a Much larger view and understanding.  What esle does "Magnify" mean??
[/quote]

She was magnifying God herself - giving Him praise; because of the joy she felt.

As much as I love Mary (if God is gracious to me and I meet her in the Kingdom then I would like to thank her for her faith and for all that she endured as the mother of our Lord), I don't believe she has a role to play in a personal faith with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I can't see that she in herself "magnified" God - but she certainly believed Him and trusted Him. She was "highly favoured" - (Gk: kecharitomene Strongs 5487) which comes from the word "Charis" meaning "undeserved grace".

[quote]The Scriptures also say that not everything Jesus taught was written down.[/quote]

I realise that, but such a vital issue as worshipping or praying to His mother would have been surely?

I do venerate Mary and am pleased to call her blessed among women: but as for her intercessory role, I doubt it.

[corban711]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:14 PM'] But I see Catholics kissing the feet of Mary statues - if that's not worship, what is?

[/quote]
Peace be with you! I will say this certainly does not mean that we worship Mary or statues of her. I also kiss pictures of my family members and deceased loved ones, not because I worship them, but because I love them and honor them as my family members. If I believe (and i do) that Mary is truly my mother then to kiss an image of her is no different than to kiss a photo of my own mother. I do this out of love and respect for who she is, and not out of worship.

[IamCatholic]

Okay, I do not really want to go into this too much because it is such a basic fact--all Christians from the very beginning have venerated Saints, so you are breaking with the entire history of Christianity by not doing so. The burden is not on Catholics (because we are doing what everyone has done throughout history) but on the others (Protestants) who have not followed tradition. Now, it is clear from the Bible, which is actually subordinate to Tradition anyway, that we are allowed to have statutes and to venerate people other than God. Not only is it allowed, it is something that is necessary (or at least something that is good to do), according to the Bible. "And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of the city. And seeing them, he rose up and went to meet them: and worshipped prostrate to the ground" Genesis 19:1 (DRV). And also, the Bible says that God commaded images to be made for the temple "Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory wherewith the ark is to be covered. In which thou shalt put the testimony that I will give thee. 22 Thence will I give orders, and will speak to thee over the propitiatory, and from the midst of the two cherubims, which shall be upon the ark of the testimony, all things which I will command the children of Israel by thee." Exodus 25:18-22 (DRV). And there are plenty of other times in the Bible where God commands them to make images. To say that having and venerating statues is idol worship would be saying that God commanded idolatry.

Edited April 4, 2005 by IamCatholic

[jezic]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:14 PM']

Surely the Lord Jesus Christ is our Mediator and High Priest? - we don't need any "Queen of Heaven" to intercede for us? I do not see that we need that in Scripture.

[/quote]
If anyone replaces Jesus as their Mediator, you are correct there is a problem.

Even in the Catholic Church Jesus is the Mediator, the one and only. Everything still goes through him. The difference is Catholics ask people in Heaven (Saints) to speak with Him face to face while we on earth can't do that.

Would you have a problem with someone on earth praying for you? If no, then why not someone in Heaven?

[thicke]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:14 PM']But I see Catholics kissing the feet of Mary statues - if that's not worship, what is?[/quote]

Are you worshiping your own mother when you kiss her on the cheek?

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:14 PM']Why have an idol of Mary at all then if it is not to worship it?[/quote]

Am I also worshiping my mother, wife and deceased grandmother by having pictures of them around?

[quote name='Priscilla' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:14 PM']I believe in the Resurrection of the body when our Lord returns to earth.  If we die before He returns to earth - then we sleep the sleep of death until He awakes us at the last Trumpet.

The idea of immortal souls is a pagan one, surely?[/quote]
Really? So the Lazarus the beggar and the rich man are just "sleeping" then in the parable from Luke 16 22-31:

[quote] 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23 And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24 And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25 And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27 And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, 28 That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29 And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31 And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.[/quote]

I'm not meaning to be a mister smarty pants here, but aren't the rich man and Abraham doing a whole lot of talking for people who are "sleeping"?

[Brother Adam]

Good Grief Charlie Brown. I leave the computer for an hour to go to class and look what happens.

If I wasn't at my school computer I wiould copy and paste what I have written at Flyfree on the understanding of worship, it is extremely relavent here.

[Brother Adam]

Welll this is going to be my '2 cents' since I am in the school cafe. I'm a former Baptist so any idea of making an idol of Mary or worshipping her in place of the one true God is absolutely revolting. And I believe the idea is revolting to Catholics and the Catholic Church.

It would be utter blasphemy to make Mary a god or to worship her in your use of the sense of the term.

When I was a Baptist I decided I could head to what Catholics believe for the following reasons:

1- There biblical evidence for the communion of the saints is very strong. So strong it is hard to ignore and remain intellectually honest.

2- The biblical evidence for Mary as the Mother of God is equally as strong.

3- Catholics believe in the intercession of Mary just as they believe in the intercession of your best friend. You can ask your best friend to pray for you. You can ask Mary to pray for you. You can ask any saint in heaven or any Christian on earth to offer their prayers for you. All acts of devotion to Mary are no more than acts of devotion. And every act of devotion to Mary leads directly to her Son, Jesus Christ. Mary's whole purpose is to point to her Son. Mariology is directly christocentric.

4- Mary is unique in her role. Unlike other saints and your best friend she is the mother of God. In the Bible family matters. Salvation is filial. Because she is the Mother of God, and a worthy intercessor to pray for us to God, she has a unique role of attaining graces for us as seen in the wedding at Cana. What Christ's mother asks of him, he willingly gives in honor of His mother.

Intentions

Catholics are often accused of worshipping Mary, bread and wine, and even the Pope. At worst they are accused of worshipping Satan. However, it is essential to understand worship. An act of worship is in essence an action that we do, either in thought or movement, to recognize someone or something as deity or as having a power of which only God alone can have. If I bow before the Queen of England as a sign of respect and reverence, I have not committed idolatry. This is because the intention of which I bow is not to recognize the Queen of England as God, but to recognize her as a ruling authority over part of God's creation. It is done in respect and reverence. If I bow in front of a statue of Mary or Joseph, as long as I do not intend to worship them, I am not committing idolatry. The intention behind which an action is done is very important to understand if the action is worship, or if it is out of respect or honor.

Numbers 22:31
Then the Lord opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the way, with his drawn sword in his hand. And he bowed down and fell on his face.

Rev. 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

In both of these instances two people bow down to an angel. Balaam was permitted to do so because he bowed in fear, honor, and reverence. John tried to bow in worship. This was not permitted. So we see that even in the same action, in this case bowing, it may or may not be worship depending on the persons intentions.

Acts 10:25-26
When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

Same thing. Cornelius tried to worship Peter, so Peter did not allow it. The Pope may allow someone to bow in respect before him, but if the Pope senses the person trying to worship him, he would naturally stop it immediately.

Acts 12:21-23
On an appointed day Herod put on his royal robes, took his seat upon the throne, and delivered an oration to them. And the people were shouting, "The voice of a god, and not of a man!" Immediately an angel of the Lord struck him down, because he did not give God the glory, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.

Herod accepted worship, and thus was struck dead by God.

Edited April 4, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Priscilla]

[quote name='corban711' date='Apr 4 2005, 01:42 PM'] Peace be with you! I will say this certainly does not mean that we worship Mary or statues of her. I also kiss pictures of my family members and deceased loved ones, not because I worship them, but because I love them and honor them as my family members. If I believe (and i do) that Mary is truly my mother then to kiss an image of her is no different than to kiss a photo of my own mother. I do this out of love and respect for who she is, and not out of worship. [/quote]
But we don't even know what she looked like. A photo is one thing: but a statue is another. God commanded that it was wrong to make a statue: "Eyes they have but hear not, ears they have but see not, legs they have but cannot walk".

Statues of Mary can niether hear, speak nor talk; though some pretend miracles have apparently happened with tears and stuff.

Is Mary omnipotent and omniscient? She must be to hear all those prayers from all over the world and take them to Christ.

I do not believe she is either. There is no evidence to suggest she is.

[Apotheoun]

This topic has been dealt with in another thread, and as I said there:

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Dec 30 2004, 09:44 AM ']First, Catholics do not pray to Mary and the saints instead of praying to Jesus; moreover, by praying to the saints one honors Jesus who made them saints in the first place. Afterall, Jesus is the source of all holiness and so praying to the saints and venerating them involves honoring Christ. Second, devotion can never become unhealthy or unnecessary, because by venerating the saints one honors the holiness of God present within them. The whole point of the incarnation of God is to make men holy, i.e., it is meant to elevate humanity into the uncreated life and glory of God.[/quote]

Taken from: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=26534&view=findpost&p=468796"]Jesus vs. Mary and the Saints, Distractions?[/url]