*urge to kill, rising*

[LittleLes]

The question being debated is not precisely defined. Is the thesis that women cannot receive the sacrament of Holy Orders, or that they cannot be priests? Keep in mind, that Holy Order's ordains deacons, priests, and bishops.

LittleLes

[Cam42]

This isn't necessarily a debate just because it got moved to the debate table, brother Littleles. There is not a defined thesis. We are simply discussing something that Raphael brought up. I think that it is that the website he listed is heterodox. Right Raphael?

Cam

[LittleLes]

That's good because there is compelling evidence - some of which is in the Vatican museum - that between about 700 and 900 A.D. ordination of women to the diaconate was commonplace using the same matter and form as male deacons. And, yes, the deacons receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.

LittleLes

Edited April 3, 2005 by LittleLes

[Quietfire]

I have this urge to email them and inform them that I am a woman and I am totally against women becoming priests.
The only reason I dont is that its too much of an effort since it isnt gonna happen anyway, they just need to get a clue.

Pax.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 3 2005, 11:29 AM'] That's good because there is compelling evidence - some of which is in the Vatican museum - that between about 700 and 900 A.D. ordination of women to the diaconate was commonplace using the same matter and form as male deacons. And, yes, the deacons receive the sacrament of Holy Orders.

LittleLes [/quote]
could you please provide some evidence of this statement of yours?

like names, dates, etc?

I'm curious as to where you get your info.

pax.

[LittleLes]

Hi Jmjtina,

I'm old fashioned and prefer books, but I have to admit, if one has the time and talent to search the web, a fair number of documents are available.

I was looking for a copy or either the Euchologion of St. Mark or the Barberini Manuscript which deal with the ordination of women deacons in the Byzantine and Greek Traditions.

I found some infomation on the web but, although this information was not written by "womenpriests.org.., its published on their website, so some Catholic apologists will probably claim it a "sham" perpertated by heretics, Modernists, feminists, Protestants, or other "enemies of Christ."

When there's no defense, engage in name calling. They teach you that in Theology 101.

[url="http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp"]http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp[/url]

LittleLes

P.S. If the URL doesn't work, search under the names of the documents.

Edited April 3, 2005 by LittleLes

[jmjtina]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 3 2005, 12:08 PM'] Hi Jmjtina,

I'm old fashioned and prefer books, but I have to admit, if one has the time and talent to search the web, a fair number of documents are available.

I was looking for a copy or either the Euchologion of St. Mark or the Barberini Manuscript which deal with the ordination of women deacons in the Byzantine and Greek Traditions.

I found some infomation on the web but, although this information was not written by "womenpriests.org.., its published on their website, so some Catholic apologists will probably claim it a "sham" perpertated by heretics, Modernists, feminists, Protestants, or other "enemies of Christ."

When there's no defense, engage in name calling. They teach you that in Theology 101.

[url="http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp"]http://www.womenpriests.org/deacons/deac_grl.asp[/url]

LittleLes

P.S. If the URL doesn't work, search under the names of the documents. [/quote]
I wouldn't trust anything from womenpriests.org as I would a Jack Chick site or a KKK site.

I'll even look at a good orthodox Bryzatine, etc website who claims it. Url doesn't work.
pax.

[jmjtina]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 3 2005, 12:08 PM'] I found some infomation on the web but, although this information was not written by "womenpriests.org.., its published on their website, so some Catholic apologists will probably claim it a "sham" perpertated by heretics, Modernists, feminists, Protestants, or other "enemies of Christ."

[/quote]
It was written by John Wijngaards (the webmaster of womenpriests.org) , who was once a priest and believes in gay marriage, women ordination, and basically everything the Church is against. "The teaching authority has lost its credibility even among loyal pastors, who often struggle to limit the damage inflicted by offering their faithful a more sensitive pastoral guidance than Rome does." Translation: We permit sins that Rome condemns, such as fornication, contracepting, and homosexual acts.

So you believe in gay marriage and everything else this man writes? Or do you just pick and choose what "truth" you believe in?

pax.

Edited April 3, 2005 by jmjtina

[MC Just]

LOL. I think it's pretty hypocritical that these "liberals" who are fighting for Gay marriage and Womens Ordinations, are the same who brought on the sexual abuse scandals, and it wasnt pedophilia, it was a homosexual scandal. Almost like they started the scandals so they'd have a reason to introduce womens ordination. Satan thinks he's slick. Oh, it's also pretty ironic that the one's responsible for the seminaries at the times were Radical Feminists.

Edited April 3, 2005 by MC Just

[Aloysius]

they were ordained to the diaconate for only the sacrament of Baptism. That's the only sacrament they did. Full Holy Orders puts an indulable mark upon the soul making them a priest forever, ordination to the diaconate does not have the same mark upon the soul. Any person in the world, even a non Christian, has the ability to baptize. the official ordaining of women deacons was to not embarass women when baptismal rites contained a lot less.. um.. clothes

And all that said was, these women are to have a stable ministry to baptize other women. Because the only time someone other than a priest or deacon should baptize is in a case of emergency. To give someone a stable ministry is simply to make it ordinary for them to baptize.

Women are not proper matter for Priestly Holy Orders. Actually, the ordination to the deaconate was not Holy Orders at all, it was ordination. It was the official institution of women in a stable ministry for baptism of women.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]"I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful."
- Pope John Paul II, [i]ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS[/i][/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Apr 3 2005, 04:12 PM'] Women are not proper matter for Priestly Holy Orders.  Actually, the ordination to the deaconate was not Holy Orders at all, it was ordination.  It was the official institution of women in a stable ministry for baptism of women. [/quote]
And there is the key. It was "ordination" in the sense of being put in an order of people, not in the sense of a sacrament.

Diakonos, the Greek for "deacon" means "assistant" or "helper"...that hardly means that all "diakonoi" were given Holy Orders.

[Thurifer]

[color=blue]I haven't read all the posts, but I'm gonna take a whack at it.
Hopefully, I won't repeat anyone.[/color]

Let's not forget that The Holy Spirit protects the Pope from teaching heresy.... So it's not gonna happen (women priests under Rome) -It's impossible. Impossible. Not going to happen, because it can't. Let's not forget Who has our backs!


Viva Christo Rey,
Gary

PS
No selling out guys!!!!! :angry:

Edited April 3, 2005 by Thurifer

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Thurifer' date='Apr 3 2005, 05:34 PM'] [color=blue]I haven't read all the posts, but I'm gonna take a whack at it.
Hopefully, I won't repeat anyone.[/color]

Let's not forget that The Holy Spirit protects the Pope from teaching heresy.... So it's not gonna happen (women priests under Rome) -It's impossible. Impossible. Not going to happen, because it can't. Let's not forget Who has our backs!


Viva Christo Rey,
Gary

PS
No selling out guys!!!!! :angry: [/quote]
Actually, the pope can commit heresy, according to St. Cardinal Bellarmine...he just can't do it ex cathedra on faith or morals...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...

[Oik]

The "deconesses" of the Eastern Church were not oradined as deacons. Their only real fuction was as a helper.

People used to be baptised naked. When a priest had to baptise a women (who was going to be naked) the priest would be behind a screen so as not to cause any scandal and he would speak the bapstism while a "deaconess" would baptise the naked woman.

End of story, fin.

These women did not have Holy Orders.

Ask Todd (Apotheoun), he's a Church Scholar and an Eastern Catholic.