*urge to kill, rising*

[Zoecool13]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 2 2005, 10:19 PM'] nope just misinformed [/quote]
give me a few days...I have a lot of homework right now, and am planning a class on what's going to be happening in the Vatican the next few weeks for my students...Once i get that all figured out, I'll do the research and send you the information. Is that cool?

[Dave]

Nathan, on your profile you list your religion as Catholic. And yet you get mad when people on here condemn the idea of ordaining women, accusing them of being "conservative." Nope, we're not conservative; we're orthodox Catholics. What the Church teaches, we believe because it's what God tells us. So your problem is not with us but with God and His Church.

[BurkeFan]

[quote name='Zoecool13' date='Apr 2 2005, 10:19 PM'] I'm double majoring in theology and history...i guess my teachers lie [/quote]
I've had teachers lie before. I don't know yours though.

[Jaime]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 2 2005, 10:09 PM']

I'll let hot stuff and Cam demolish your misconceptions about infallibility. [/quote]
Oh Jas

Between our loss today, confession and a very solemn mass, I needed a good laugh.

Thanks man!!


I could still use a hug today.


Zoe,

I hear you on trusting your professors. But after getting my degree in Theology, I speak from experience. I had professors who were also priests who taught things that were antithetical to dogma. They were literally quizzing us on heretical statements being proclaimed as "truth". When I realized this... I was verrry ticked!

It can happen.

Edited April 3, 2005 by jaime

[Aloysius]

the crusades were a perfect example of a just war: ALL of Christendom was threatened by the muslim world, especially Byzantium. The West was defending itself AND its eastern Christian brethren.

crusaders pillaged villages, murdered women and children, and did a whole hoard of bad things. that's not exactly what the Pope told them to do. The Pope said "God wills it". God did will it, because if He hadn't willed it and there hadn't been Crusades, the muslims would most certainly have conquered Christendom and we'd all be muslims right now.

Vatican II BEGAN by reaffirming everything said by the Council of Trent and Vatican I. Basically, you can quote trent and say Vatican II said that, because that's what reaffirming it in a council means.

When a pope speaks on a matter of faith or morals in order to settle the matter for and bind the entire Church in doctrine the Holy Spirit protects him from error. This means that God Almighty who gave us all free will and because He gave it to us and loves us does not normally interfere with it, will INTERFERE to PREVENT a pope from ever binding the Church in doctrinal error.

Here is a perfect example. The Pope doesn't have to use some set formula to be infallible, he is infallible when his teaching meets the criteria. He uses a set formula to solemnly declare dogma ex cathedra, and is infallible there. However, when it's just some doctrine he's declaring infallibly, if his statement meets the criteria it is infallible. Here is the perfect example for this thread:

[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html"]ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS[/url]
[quote]Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.[/quote]

This is about faith because it defines the nature of the Church and the nature of one of the seven sacraments. Lk 22:23 is the Petrine reference making it clear he's speaking in his Petrine authority and power, and he makes it clear he is binding the whole Church in this doctrine.

Not everything the pope says is infallible, though it is binding. Now, I really can't think of any encyclicals that contradict themselves and generally defend that they don't contradict when it comes up... you're talking to a person who has made a valid case that the Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX and Vatican II are in perfect harmony for goodness sake! But the fact that two encyclicals would contradict doesn't necessarily prove it. Now, if two statements in encyclicals in which the Pope acted as supreme shepherd of the Church to settle a matter of faith or morals binding it upon the whole Chruch contradicted, then it would be intriguing and disproving of papal infallibility. Until such a time, no pope in 2000 years has ever bound error in a matter of faith or morals upon the Ancient Holy Roman Apostolic Catholic whatevertheheckelseadjectiveyouwannagiveitiwastryingtobemellodramatic Church

[Jaime]

[quote]...and he makes it clear he is binding the whole Church in this doctrine.[/quote]

All due respect, but it wasn't exactly clear. Because Ordination Sacerdotalis did not meet the criteria for ex cathedra, (this letter was not addressed to the whole community) it necessitated a dubium to the CDF.

Fortunately Cardinal Ratzinger et. al. did clarify that this was indeed an infallible teaching.

[Aloysius]

well, the CDF I like to say is infallible as to whether or not something else is infallbile. lol, i.e. they can clarify if the Pope meant it as infallible

but regardless of who it was sent to, the wording of that quote i showed is what makes it clearly meant to bind the whole Church IMHO. Obviously it's nice to have the CDF to tell us for sure, otherwise it would have been debatable. but now it's not, Roma Locuta Est, Causa Finita Est!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Nathan' date='Apr 2 2005, 09:01 PM'] Raphael has this problem with logic. I don't think he can help it. [/quote]
Which of us has used circular reasoning today?

Hi everyone, I just got back from watching VeggieTales with some friends.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Zoecool13' date='Apr 2 2005, 11:19 PM'] I'm double majoring in theology and history...i guess my teachers lie [/quote]
May I ask what school is giving you this degree?

They are neglecting their moral obligation to academic honesty. I went to an infamously heterodox seminary, and even I know how screwy the notion of female clergy is.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Zoecool13' date='Apr 3 2005, 12:19 AM'] I'm double majoring in theology and history...i guess my teachers lie [/quote]
It depends on where you go to school and if you profs are teaching actual Catholic teaching or their own version of Catholic teaching.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Zoecool13' date='Apr 2 2005, 07:33 PM'] We all need to brace ourselves for upcoming changes... and we need to accept and love those changes.  Yesterday, many of you argued with me about the use of glass chalices.  I believe someone told me not to question whtat the Vatican says... If the new Pope says women can be Priests, then as Catholics, we must accept that.  Due to the vocations problem, something is going to have to change, I wish nothing did, but our beloved church cannot survive without clergy members.  This is one of those things that I believe should be more of a worry then what type of chalices are used during mass. [/quote]
Zoe,

A couple of things. First, glass chalices....that was me (as well as a couple of others). I suggest that you read [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html"]Redemptionis Sacramentum #117.[/url] It is a clear teaching.

While it is not an infallible teaching, it is a prudent one. And common sense goes a long way in the Church. Faith and Reason.

Secondly, women's ordination. I suggest that you read [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html"]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis #4.[/url]

It is extremely clear. It goes so far as to make this a doctrine that is to be definitively held. This would be as close to infallible as one can get without making it explicitly so. And it can be argued that it is an infallible document, by virtue of the wording:
[quote]I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful. (OS #4)[/quote]

Are they on the same level? On a certain level yes, they are. It is about obedience. The Church teaches on many levels; discipline, doctrine, and dogma. While we are not talking about dogma at the moment, we are talking about discipline (chalices) and doctrine (ordination). They are related, it is obedience. Plain and simple.

Cam

N.B. I already have one of the degrees that you are aspiring to; Theology. I will pray that you come to a greater understanding of that which you study. I will also pray that you keep an open mind and continue to learn. If you join your reason to faith, as the late Holy Father suggests in Fides et Ratio, then I think that you will do well. Prosper with your studies and support it with prayer and obedience to the Magisterium. God Bless.

Edited April 3, 2005 by Cam42

[toledo_jesus]

wow, that site is atrocious. My bishop removed one of those women from a diocesan post last May. It was sweet. He said letting her work for the diocese would be like Hebrew University letting in Hamas. Like I said, pretty sweet.
Anyway, women's ordination is wrong, for reasons enumerated before. When you die you'll realize that. Hopefully before you die you'll realize the Church is not a democracy and these 'movements' are insipid and juvenile, typically American in scope and focus (me me me, I want I want I want). Until then, shaddup and rejoice that the Pope is no longer suffering!

[Aloysius]

Actually, the doctrine would be a higher level than discipline. The next pope, or rather next Roman Patriarch because that's the role he'd be playing, if he so wished, could allow for glass chalices. The Roman Patriarch when considering which disciplines should be applied to the Roman Rite, i.e. the whole western Chruch, considers which things should be more reverent. Then, out of obedience and as a sign of unity, we all obey.

Anyway, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith said that the Pope intended that to be an infallible doctrine, and the wording is good. It is not a solemn ex cathedra declaration of a dogma by a pope, but it is an infallible teaching of a doctrine by a pope and as such is irreformable, unchangable, chizzled in stone. Since it's doctrine, a future pope can still dot the i's and cross the t's of it, but he cannot reverse it. That's the nature of infallible doctrine.

[Theoketos]

If the pope were to ordain women, then all reason is lost and I am becoming a super villian.

Edited April 3, 2005 by Theoketos

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Apr 3 2005, 01:39 AM'] If the pope were to ordain women, then all reason is lost and I am becoming a super villian. [/quote]


James, you're ...but then, I knew that when we were using plastic kiddy forks for pasta...