Consecration To Mary?

[BLAZEr]

Hey, as a non-catholic Christian, could you explain to me where you get Mary's high position from Scripturally?  I understand that she's definetly an important person, but I see scripture saying that you should be willing to give up even your family for the sake of Christ.  Also, I see no basis anywhere in Scripture for praying to anyone besides God the father, and maybe the Holy Spirit.  I don't even see any indication that we should pray *to* Christ, but instead in his name.

I see Jesus as *the* way, and don't really feel that I need Mary to intercede for me, as Christ himself came to take away my sins and wants a personal relationship with me.  I don't see the Disciples following Mary to get to Christ, that just doesn't make sense to me.

Now please, don't let this be a rebuke to your faith at all, I just want to see where thse ideas are from, so that I can minister to my Catholic brothers without hindering them.

Does a little child need his mother to grow up? Certainly it would be possible for boy to grow into man without a mother, but that's not the way that God has ordered the world. In his kindness he has given us human mothers to quide and love and intercede for us on our behalf (Hell hath no fury like a Mom who's child is in trouble!)

Similarly, God could have brought about the redemption of the world in any number of ways. He did not have to make Jesus a man, he did not have to have him born of a woman, he did not have to have him die on a cross. Yet, he did. As Catholics, we don't claim to fully understand all of God's ways but we also don't act outside of them. We hail the Cross because Christ died on it. We hail human existence because God became man. And we Hail Mary because Christ was born of this Woman . . .

And just as God chose to give Christ to the world THROUGH the intercession of Mary . . . we believe that Christ ("Behold your Mother.") chooses to gives us himself through her intercession as well.

[_bc]

This story about fr. Sheier gives me goosebumps. I need to go see a priest tomorrow.

Here's a website where you can watch a 40 minute excerpt of an interview with him.

[Undercover]

[>> Quoting Anna]

>> How do you presently "minister" to Catholics?

I am part of a large campus ministry that has Christians of all denominations, and so I minister through that, partly in a Bible study, but also just through friendships and such. I think continuing to be ignorant to the traditions and beliefs of Catholics would severely hinder my ability to minister to them, just as it would to be ignorant of any other denomination.

>>For Scriptures, how about Luke 1..."Hail, full of grace!" (The angel greets her not by her human name, but by the condition of her soul) "Blessed art thou among women!" (Elizabeth isn't flattering Mary, these words are inspired, as she is filled with the Holy Spirit, and calling this out to the Virgin.)

Hm, yes, and I agree that she was blessed among women for sure, but I'm not sure that I would put her above the apostles just from that... Well, I don't really like how that sounded, seems like that "Who's the greatest" argument..

>> "All ages shall call me Blessed..."

where is this quote? didn't see it in Luke 1.

>> and, of course, Genesis, "I will put emnity between you (Satan) and the Woman..."

hm, thought that was talking about Eve and/or womenkind..

>> We Catholics also have Apostolic tradition. The Apostles honored Mary, and just as Christ gave Mary to St. John at the foot of the Cross, so too Jesus and the Apostles have given Mary to us.

hm, this makes things a bit clearer.

>> She's Our Mother. Few non-Catholics can comprehend the bond we share, as brothers and sisters in Christ, with Mary as our Mother, adopted children of God the Father, united by the Holy Spirit with all the Catholics that ever lived...from the Apostles to present day. It's a BIG family! :D

This is pretty much the spiritual family structure that I believe in as well, minus Mary as mother, although she would fit under the uniting of the Holy Spirit. Oh and Jesus as the husband of the Church, of course.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Undercover

[Paladin D]

>> How do you presently "minister" to Catholics?

I am part of a large campus ministry that has Christians of all denominations, and so I minister through that, partly in a Bible study, but also just through friendships and such.  I think continuing to be ignorant to the traditions and beliefs of Catholics would severely hinder my ability to minister to them, just as it would to be ignorant of any other denomination.

Why even minister to Catholics? Are we not saved? I'm interested in what you have to say.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Paladin D

[BLAZEr]

>> "All ages shall call me Blessed..."

where is this quote? didn't see it in Luke 1.

Luke 1:48 . . .

>> and, of course, Genesis, "I will put emnity between you (Satan) and the Woman..."

hm, thought that was talking about Eve and/or womenkind..

It says I will put "Emnity between your seed and

He is talking to the serpent. And who is the Seed that shall bruise the Serpant's head? Jesus, he's the only one that can crush the serpent. Who is the Woman who gave birth to this seed? Mary . . . she is the one who will have emnity for the serpent.

The Reason that Catholics today interpret this passage this way is because the Early Christians interpreted this passage this way. Irenaeus of Lyons and Ignatius of Antioch both write many treatises on Mary as the "New Eve" . . . the one who undoes Eve's Disobedience by her Obedience.

>> She's Our Mother.  Few non-Catholics can comprehend the bond we share, as brothers and sisters in Christ, with Mary as our Mother, adopted children of God the Father, united by the Holy Spirit with all the Catholics that ever lived...from the Apostles to present day.  It's a BIG family! :D

This is pretty much the spiritual family structure that I believe in as well, minus Mary as mother, although she would fit under the uniting of the Holy Spirit.  Oh and Jesus as the husband of the Church, of course.

You can't just pick and choose where Mary comes in and out can you? She is the "Spouse" of the Holy Spirit because by him she conceived a son. She is the Daughter of the Father and Mother of the Son . . . and since the Son is God in His fullness, she is the Mother of God . . . Mary stands at the center of the Human Mystery in the Incarnation . . . She is the Yes by which Salvation comes, she is the one who goes to her son and says "They Have No Wine" knowing that He will always listen to his mother and provide for those she loves, she is the one at the foot of the Cross who is Given to John as his Mother, and by virtue of this to all Christians as their Mother. Christ's last words on the Cross weren't an after thought they weren't an "Oh by the way" . . . they meant to fulfill the Scritpures and to instruct the Church at its most important moment . . . and there he looks up from his anguish and says "Behold Your Mother" . . . not "my" Mother . . . "Your Mother" . . . I just can't get past this simple extraordinary statement.

[Anna]

A family without a Mom is deprived, inDouche.

undercover, in your Christian ministry, if you met a lukewarm Catholic, or one who didn't really know or practice his Faith, would you present these things to him?

Or would you encourage him to seek a relationship with the Lord outside the Catholic Church?

I welcome your questions about this beautiful Faith.

Pax Christi. <><

[BLAZEr]

I just got to the bottom of something that I never realized about Protestants . . . a friend and I were discussing the title Mary Mother of God and he thought it was totally offensive to raise her up and call her God's Mother . . . and I said "Don't you realize this about Jesus? That calling Mary the Mother of God is about making it clear that Jesus and the Father and Holy Spirit are all ONE GOD in Three Persons?"

I realized that my non-Catholic friend thought that Mary Mother of God was about Mary . . . but that's not why they defined that Dogma at the Council of Ephesus in 431, it was to help put to death the heresy that Nestorious of Constantinople had been spreading seperating the Divinity and Humanity of Christ . . . It was meant to once and for all lay down the law and make it clear that Mary, in giving birth to Christ, gave birth to the fullness of God, the oneness of God, God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ.

Council of Ephesus in 431 AD

[Undercover]

Why even minister to Catholics?  Are we not saved?  I'm interested in what you have to say.

Uhm, yeah, if someone is repenting and accepting Christ and following after him, then of course they're saved, doesn't matter what denom they may be from or whatever. By minister, I mean to help them in their walk with Christ. Once you're saved it doesn't mean you just go do whatever you feel like because you're saved, you continue to grow in your relationship with Christ. Through Bible studies and friendships we can help to support eachother and to grow together in Christ. Just because my friend has a few beliefs that differ from mine, it doesn't mean I won't try to support him or be his friend. And if I'm totally ignorant to what his beliefs are or where they're based, there's a good chance I could offend him, or misunderstand something.

[Undercover]

undercover, in your Christian ministry, if you met a lukewarm Catholic, or one who didn't really know or practice his Faith, would you present these things to him?

Or would you encourage him to seek a relationship with the Lord outside the Catholic Church?

Well, this pretty well describes my room-mate my freshmen year. He was raised catholic, but really wasn't living it as far as I could tell. I really didn't know anything about Catholicism, and wasn't super strong in my own faith, so I just kinda left him alone on that subject. He had some beliefs that were totally different from mine, and also had some new-age stuff thrown in, and was a big believer in anything coming from a Popular Science magazine, including weird theories about creation or spiritual parallels and stuff like that.. like I said, I didn't press him too much about it.

I wish now that I would have known how to encourage him in his faith, but being so ignorant about the subject, I felt unprepared to challenge him with his faith. I tried bringing him to my Church, but he wouldn't come (he didn't go to a single mass the whole time we were room mates).

But no, I definetly wouldn't try to change his beliefs like in Mary, or other things that would be against the Catholicism, (except if totally necessary - he had some odd beliefs that I don't think originated from Catholicism), but instead I would have challenged him to continue growing in his relationship with Christ (or even Mary, atleast he would be growing!), and definetly to read his Bible and go to Mass.

[Undercover]

I just got to the bottom of something that I never realized about Protestants . . . a friend and I were discussing the title Mary Mother of God and he thought it was totally offensive to raise her up and call her God's Mother . . . and I said "Don't you realize this about Jesus?  That calling Mary the Mother of God is about making it clear that Jesus and the Father and Holy Spirit are all ONE GOD in Three Persons?"

I realized that my non-Catholic friend thought that Mary Mother of God was about Mary . . . but that's not why they defined that Dogma at the Council of Ephesus in 431, it was to help put to death the heresy that Nestorious of Constantinople had been spreading seperating the Divinity and Humanity of Christ . . . It was meant to once and for all lay down the law and make it clear that Mary, in giving birth to Christ, gave birth to the fullness of God, the oneness of God, God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ.

Council of Ephesus in 431 AD

Yes, saying that Mary is the Mother of God seems a bit odd at times, especially since Christ *was* around before Mary (John 1:1), but it does depend on how you look at it. I mean, I can't deny that Mary *was* the Mother of Jesus, so yes, in a way, she is the Mother of God.

I think for me, it's hard to understand having a relationship with Mary, just as it is to have a relationship with Abraham or Moses. Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit I can understand a bit more, because they *are* God, and the Bible clearly shows that we can (and should) have a relationship with them.

Sorry if this offends, but my first thoughts of having a relationship with Mary seems similar to King Saul calling upon the spirit of Samuel.. which wasn't right.

[BLAZEr]

Yes, saying that Mary is the Mother of God seems a bit odd at times, especially since Christ *was* around before Mary (John 1:1), but it does depend on how you look at it. I mean, I can't deny that Mary *was* the Mother of Jesus, so yes, in a way, she is the Mother of God.

I think for me, it's hard to understand having a relationship with Mary, just as it is to have a relationship with Abraham or Moses. Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit I can understand a bit more, because they *are* God, and the Bible clearly shows that we can (and should) have a relationship with them.

Sorry if this offends, but my first thoughts of having a relationship with Mary seems similar to King Saul calling upon the spirit of Samuel.. which wasn't right.

I think we can have a relationship with Mary because Jesus had a realtionship with her. When we pray with Mary, we're talking God in Heaven with her, most especially because she's there in Heaven with Him adoring Him loving Him and loving what he loves . . . and since God loves us, the Saints love us too!

We don't channel Mary's Spirit to be a physical manifestation . . . we dont' go to a Necromancer to have the Dead talk to us and tell us things . . . we talk to the Saints, and give them our struggles and hopes and fears and longings and ask them to keep them before the Throne of God with us . . .

This is out of sheer ignorance, but don't you ever pray with your dead loved ones? Don't you ever hope that your Holy Granddad or Uncle, or former pastor who have died and that you love and hope are in heaven holding up Golden Bowls of incnense before God remembering you, smiling down on you?

[BLAZEr]

/05491a.htm]Council of Ephesus in 431 AD

Yes, saying that Mary is the Mother of God seems a bit odd at times, especially since Christ *was* around before Mary (John 1:1), but it does depend on how you look at it. I mean, I can't deny that Mary *was* the Mother of Jesus, so yes, in a way, she is the Mother of God.

[Uncle Gus]

There is often confusion caused by the title "Mother of God" because people think that it means that Mary is the mother of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, which is not true. In order to understand how Mary is the Mother of God, you have to understand the Trinity (no easy task). God is One God, in three persons. Each person is distinct from the others, Father, Son and Spirit, yet all three are completely God. So, Jesus is completely God, and Mary is His mother, which makes her the mother of God.

You also have to understand Jesus' dual-nature. He is fully God, and He is fully human, yet He is one person. There are a few heresies that destroy this understanding. Some people say that Jesus was two people, one Divine and one human. This is not the case. Jesus is one person, Divine and human.

Some others say that Mary isn't the mother of God, because she is only the mother of Jesus' human body. Now tell me, what do you call your mother? Your mother, right? She isn't the mother of your human body. Your soul didn't come from your mother, just as Jesus' divinity didn't come from Mary. But you still call your mother your mother, right? And the same with Mary. Mothers are mothers of persons, not of bodies. Mary is the mother of the person Jesus, who is God and who is Man and who is one Person.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Uncle Gus

[Anna]

undercover,

Again, I welcome you to phatMass, and welcome your questions. I think you've come to a great place to understand the teachings, beliefs, and historical significance of the Catholic Church.

I hope you stay awhile and learn lots, so that you never have to endure a situation as you did with your lukewarm former roommate. That boy should've gotten himself to confession!!! (or girl, whatever.)

We definitely do not go in for any new age stuff: no channeling energy, no earth worship, no ancient eastern mysticism, etc. Our Faith is True, and It stands on It's own merits, without the hocus pocus of other pagan religions. Sadly, many Catholics (and Christians of other denominations) are beginning to co-mingle new age beliefs with their Christian faith. I see that as a recipe for disaster.

When considering that what we have to lose here is "eternitiy" (hello? Big E--Eternity!!!) we cannot gamble with trying this, and dabbling in that. We must be certain that what we do and what we believe are what God has given us.

A "relationship" with Mary isn't the same as a relationship with Christ. Simply put, she is human, He is Divine. But what we do have for her is a loving devotion. As Jesus willed to be subject to this woman, and as He entrusted her to His beloved apostle, so we too wish to honor her and show her our devotion.

And truly, if she is the Mother of Our Lord (which is stated in Luke 1, "Who am I that the Mother of the Lord should come....") then she must be the Mother of God, for God is indivisible. He cannot be separated. He is One Lord.

Pretty deep, huh?

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

I think Anna and Cheryl should share the title "Mother of Phatmass."  lol.  Talk about thorough, Anna even called EWTN to find out the information she needed.  They could be "Co-Mothers of Phatmass."  ::nods::

Anna is the grandmother of phatmass!!! :lol: