Looking For Answers.................

[Aloysius]

i think he was looking for a non Christian historian to provide an account of Jesus' life. like Josephus. I know they're out there. doesn't that artical i put up cite some? i'll havta recheck it.

[mp15]

Well Jake, I'm happy for you that you have the will to blindly follow and believe. I on the other hand can not. If the source of the answer is only contained within the Catholic Church, then I'm afraid to say the Church has a long way to go in bringing me into her arms again. I do not believe for a moment that the Church holds all of the answers in regards to Jesus's life. Other sources have to exist that my have wittnessed something yet was not enough to make them believe. Show me something in regards to Jesus that is outside of what the Church says. I know the Quran has a few things to say. Surely the Romans recorded some info. How do we know that those are not correct? Because the Church says so? If that is the case, then I will tell you that that is not good enough. We all know history can be rewritten. And seeing as how the Church put the bible together, I would say that makes me a bit skeptical about his divinity. Is there something to be feared in trying to dig deeper into history?

Edited November 3, 2003 by mp15

[Anna]

mp,

I'd encourage you to email Katholikos.

He began as a baptist, then when he discovered cracks in their logic, became agnostic, then atheist.

Studying anthropology through secular historians, he began to uncover Truth...and the rest (as you can tell by his sn, ) is history!

He's well read, straight forward, and always willing to help.

(Can you tell I'm a fan?)

Pax Christi. <><

[mp15]

mp,

I'd encourage you to email Katholikos.

He began as a baptist, then when he discovered cracks in their logic, became agnostic, then atheist.

Studying anthropology through secular historians, he began to uncover Truth...and the rest (as you can tell by his sn, ) is history!

He's well read, straight forward, and always willing to help.

(Can you tell I'm a fan?)

Pax Christi. <><

Hi Anna, and thanks. Emailing Katholikos sounds good. I have always liked him and I'm sure he has some answers for me that may help.

On a side note. I do not consider myself an atheist. Unfortunatly I do not consider myself a Catholic at this moment either. I do believe in God, I'm just not sure it is the God of Catholicism. It's kinda weird, I was raised a Christian for 36 years and now I'm as far away from believing in it as I have ever been. I wish I could blame it on college or something since that would at least give me an answer, but at this time I do not have an answer. I am searching though which is a good thing.

Edited November 3, 2003 by mp15

[Aloysius]

I know the Quran has a few things to say.

~MP15

The Quran was written like 600 years after Jesus by a guy who studied Judaism and Christianity, then rejected some stuff about it so he wrote his own book cuz he thought the God was there but it was misinterpretted, so he wrote a book taking out the key points about God in Christianity that he didn't understand.

he blasphemed stuff about Jesus when he actually knew nothing about it, other than the Gospel accounts which he didn't accept.

anyway, read Josephus, the Jewish historian of the time.

did you look at that artical i posted? http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/d...ver2.html#text1

i think it has some good points

prayin 4 ya

~~Al

[mp15]

~MP15

The Quran was written like 600 years after Jesus by a guy who studied Judaism and Christianity, then rejected some stuff about it so he wrote his own book cuz he thought the God was there but it was misinterpretted, so he wrote a book taking out the key points about God in Christianity that he didn't understand.

he blasphemed stuff about Jesus when he actually knew nothing about it, other than the Gospel accounts which he didn't accept.

anyway, read Josephus, the Jewish historian of the time.

did you look at that artical i posted?  http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/d...ver2.html#text1

i think it has some good points

prayin 4 ya

~~Al

Yes I have checked it out. Thanks for the link. I will read it more in depth in the coming days as time permits. Thanks again!!

Marcus

[cmotherofpirl]

Cmom, what you could be trying to do is help someone regain their faith rather than getting annoyed. Not very good at evangelizing I see. Which I believe other non-Catholics are saying around here as of late.

Look, I'm not accusing you of lying. If you think I am, fine. Believe what you want. I'm simply asking for answers that may (and have to exist) outside the Catholic Church.

As I pointed out you are asking for something that does not exist. Nobody sat around and documented what was going on in an obscure sect in the far corner of the Roman empire.

I produce a catholic source and an encyclopedia source which you seem to dismiss out of hand.

You say these independent souces "have" to exist.

Well actually they don't, at least not in the beginning.

Josephus wrote several lines.

If you are having a crisis about jesus being the son of God, I suggest you start with the protestant book by C S Lewis "Mere Christianity" .

It is a classic text and a good read.

[mp15]

As I pointed out you are asking for something that does not exist. Nobody sat around and documented what was going on in an obscure sect in the far corner of the Roman empire.

I produce a catholic source and an encyclopedia source which you seem to dismiss out of hand.

You say these independent souces "have" to exist.

Well actually they don't, at least not in the beginning.

Josephus wrote several lines.

If you are having a crisis about jesus being the son of God, I suggest you start with the protestant book by C S Lewis "Mere Christianity" .

It is a classic text and a good read.

Cmom, I simply do not believe that no other evidence exists. If that makes you feel better then great. And for the record, I do not dismiss everything you posted out of hand. What I do dismiss is your assestion that the Church has all the answers. I do not believe that it does. That is what I'm trying to find out. Let me repeat something again. If the only evidence of Jesus's life is from only one source (i.e Catholic) then yes I will dismiss that out of hand. Obtaining info from just one source is not the way to discovering the truth. If you obtain your information from one source and one source only, do you think that your beliefs might become a little tainted?

Edited November 3, 2003 by mp15

[Azriel]

Marcus,

I've been where you are. To me, all the sources in the world wouldn't matter.

It came down to prayer and faith. And, realizing that there will always be the Mystery. And, that is when I learned the great beauty of faith. It requires no proof.

Hang in there, bro. I'm pulling for you.

Az

[mp15]

Marcus,

I've been where you are.  To me, all the sources in the world wouldn't matter. 

It came down to prayer and faith.  And, realizing that there will always be the Mystery.  And, that is when I learned the great beauty of faith.  It requires no proof.

Hang in there, bro.  I'm pulling for you.

Az

Thanks Az, that means a lot.

I have never been able to believe in blind faith. I wish I could, then it would make things so much easier. In the mean time I will continue to search for the truth. Maybe it will come maybe it wont. I guess the bright side is that I am searching. I may not like the answer, but then it may not be my choice. ;)

[Jake Huether]

Well Jake, I'm happy for you that you have the will to blindly follow and believe. I on the other hand can not. If the source of the answer is only contained within the Catholic Church, then I'm afraid to say the Church has a long way to go in bringing me into her arms again. I do not believe for a moment that the Church holds all of the answers in regards to Jesus's life. Other sources have to exist that my have wittnessed something yet was not enough to make them believe. Show me something in regards to Jesus that is outside of what the Church says. I know the Quran has a few things to say. Surely the Romans recorded some info. How do we know that those are not correct? Because the Church says so? If that is the case, then I will tell you that that is not good enough. We all know history can be rewritten. And seeing as how the Church put the bible together, I would say that makes me a bit skeptical about his divinity. Is there something to be feared in trying to dig deeper into history?

That was a bit of a low blow mp15. I do simply follow, but it aint blindly. I follow because I've found the source of Truth!

It is, for me, as simple as apple pie! 2000 years man! If it was fake, please tell me how it's survived!

[mp15]

That was a bit of a low blow mp15.  I do simply follow, but it aint blindly.  I follow because I've found the source of Truth!

It is, for me, as simple as apple pie!  2000 years man!  If it was fake, please tell me how it's survived!

Well, that may be easy also.

It may have survived precisely for the very reason you and Cmom claim. The lack of evidence from outside sources surrounding his life. There is an old saying that goes something like this "tell a lie often enough and soon it will become the truth".

Now, before you blow a gasket and start calling me names, I'm not saying the story of Jesus is a lie. I'm on a search to discover if it was in fact truth. That is all. You can help me if you want.

[Aloysius]

dude, jake, those would make for some Phat lyrics in a rap...

[cmotherofpirl]

josephus:3. (37AD to about 93AD)

(63) Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works-a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; (64) and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 3

From The Works of Josephus,

translated by William Whiston

Hendrickson Publishers, 1987

TACITUS, (55-117AD)The Annals of Imperial Rome Book XV, chapter 47 (A.D. 64) [during the Great Fire of Rome]

...neither human resources, nor imperial generosity, nor appeasement of the gods, eliminated the sinister suspicion that the fire had been deliberately started. To stop the rumor, NERO, made scapegoats--and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved CHRISTIANS (as they were popularly called). Their originator, CHRIST, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the Procurator of Judaea, PONTIUS PILATUS (governor from 26 to 36 A.D.). But in spite of this temporary setback, the deadly superstition had broken out again, not just in Judaea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome. All degraded and shameful practices collect and flourish in the capital. First, NERO had the self-admitted Christians arrested. Then, on their information, large numbers of others were condemned--not so much for starting fires as because of their hatred for the human race. Their deaths were made amusing. Dressed in wild animals' skins, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or crucified, or made into torches to be seton fire after dark as illumination.... Despite their guilt as Christians, and the ruthless punishment it deserved, the victims were pitied. For it was felt that they were being sacrificed to one man's brutality rather than to the national interest."

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SUETONIUS,(69 -to after 122AD) Life of the Emperor Claudius, chapter 25:

"Since the Jews were constantly causing disturbances at the instigation of CHRESTUS, he expelled them from the city..."

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SUETONIUS, Life of the Emperor Nero, chapter 16:

"[After the Great Fire]...punishments were also inflicted on the CHRISTIANS, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief ....

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PLINY (61 to 113AD)

(Governor of the Province of Bithynia-Pontus) Epistles Book 10 #96 addressed to the Emperor Trajan (ca. 112 A.D.)

"...I have never been present at an examination of Christians. So, I do not know the nature or the extent of the punishments usually dealt out to them, nor the grounds for starting an investigation and how far it should be carried...For the moment this is the line I have taken with all persons brought before me on the charge of being Christians. I have asked them in person if they are Christians; if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and athird time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for punishment; for whatever the nature of their admission, I am convinced that their stubbornness (contumacia) and unshakeable obstinacy ought to be punished. There have been others similarly fanatical who are Roman citizens; I have entered them on the list of persons to be sent to Rome for punishment.... I considered that I should dismiss any who denied that they were or ever had been Christians, once they had repeated after me a formula of invocation to the gods and had made offerings of wine and incense to your statue (which I had ordered to be brought into court for this purpose along with images of the gods), and furthermore had ursed the name of Christ. Real Christians (I understand) can never be induced to do these things....They declared that the sum total of their guilt or error amounted to no more than this: they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately among themselves in honor of Christ as if to a god, and also to bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery and adultery, to commit no breach of trust and not to refuse toreturn a deposit upon demand. After this ceremony it had been their custom to disperse and later to take food of an ordinary harmless kind. But they had in fact given this up since my edict, issued on your instructions which banned all political societies. This made me decide it was all the more necessary to extract the truth from two slave women (whom they call `deaconesses' bytorture. I found nothing but a degenerate sort of cult carried to xtravagant lengths... I have therefore postponed any further examination and hastened toconsult you..."

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THE EMPEROR TRAJAN TO PLINY:

"You have followed the right course of procedure, my dear Pliny, in your examination of the cases of persons charged with being Christians. For it is impossible to lay down a general rule to a fixed formula. These people must not be hunted out. But if they are brought before you and the charge against them is proved true, they must be punished. But in the case of anyone who denies that he is a Christian, and makes it clear that he is not, by offering prayers to our gods, he is to be pardoned as a result of his repentance--however suspect his conduct may have been in the past. But pamphlets circulated anonymously must play NO part in any accusation. They create the worst precedent, and are quite out of keeping with the spirit of our age."

Tacitus (c. 55 -117 CE): Nero's persecution of the Christians

Tacitus was a fierce critic of Nero, and modern scholars have questioned the reliability of his account of this notorious Roman Emperor; but the following passage from his Annals is famous because it is one of the first mentions in a non-Christian source of Christianity. In 64 CE Rome underwent a catastrophic fire, which some believed had been set at the orders of the emperor himself. Tacitus claims that Nero tried to shift the blame to the unpopular Christians, though other sources indicate that their persecution may have been unconnected to the fire. It is not clear exactly why many Romans so detested the new believers, though Christians were often confused with Jews, who were accused of being rebellious (with some reason, since the Jews of Judaea more than once created insurrections against the Roman provincial government) and lazy (since they rested on the Sabbath). Scandalous rumors about obscene Christian rituals circulated at an early date, and we know that they were accused of disloyalty because of their refusal to perform the token ritual acknowledging the divine status of the Emperor, viewed by most citizens as little different from a modern flag salute. If Tacitus shows sympathy for them, it is because he detests Nero more. Whatever their exact cause this early persecution and later ones made a profound impact on the Christian Church, and bequeathed a legacy of colorful tales of martyred saints who were celebrated in story, song, and art for the next two millenia, long after the Church had triumphed over its opponents.

What were the main accusations brought against the Christians?

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Yet no human effort, no princely largess nor offerings to the gods could make that infamous rumor disappear that Nero had somehow ordered the fire. Therefore, in order to abolish that rumor, Nero falsely accused and executed with the most exquisite punishments those people called Christians, who were infamous for their abominations. The originator of the name, Christ, was executed as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius; and though repressed, this destructive superstition erupted again, not only through Judea, which was the origin of this evil, but also through the city of Rome, to which all that is horrible and shameful floods together and is celebrated. Therefore, first those were seized who admitted their faith, and then, using the information they provided, a vast multitude were convicted, not so much for the crime of burning the city, but for hatred of the human race. And perishing they were additionally made into sports: they were killed by dogs by having the hides of beasts attached to them, or they were nailed to crosses or set aflame, and, when the daylight passed away, they were used as nighttime lamps. Nero gave his own gardens for this spectacle and performed a Circus game, in the habit of a charioteer mixing with the plebs or driving about the race-course. Even though they were clearly guilty and merited being made the most recent example of the consequences of crime, people began to pity these sufferers, because they were consumed not for the public good but on account of the fierceness of one man.

Translated by Richard Hooker

Interent Ancient History Sourcebook

Edited November 4, 2003 by cmotherofpirl

[hyperdulia again]

:(

:(