Cam42 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 brother Littleles, How do you like your toast again? Or am I trying to prove the negative as well? Where does the Church teach that the Scriptures are inerrant? Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hi Ayed, I'm afraid you are getting off topic with your question. But, yes. The Gospels, Epistles, and even the writings of Josephus, the contemporary Jewish historian, all written in Greek which has a specific word for biological brother, claim that Jesus had brothers. But St. Jerome changed these "brothers" into 'cousins" for doctrinal reasons. LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Lets review some of what we know of Jesus. Lets start with the Gospel of Mark. (1) Mark is the shortest of the gospels and now generally considered the first written. (2) It was anonymous, but traditionally assigned to John Mark in Jerusalem (see Papias, 120 -138 A.D.) (3) Tradition has it that it was written slightly before 70 A.D. for a Gentile audience. (4) Now it is thought to have been written by a Hellenistic Jewish Christian, possibly in Syria, slightly after 70 A.D. (5) Mark 1:1 begins "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ (the Son of God). But the phrase "Son of God" is not found in all manuscripts. (6) Mark contains no nativity narrative nor claim of a virginal conception for Jesus. (7) It describes the preaching of John the Baptist and the baptism of Jesus "You are my beloved Son with you I am well pleased." (8)Mark reports that Jesus spent 40 days in the desert and was tempted by Satan. (9) Mark describes the beginning of Jesus' Galilean ministry, "The kingdom of God is at hand." (10) Mark reports the call of the apostles. (To be continued, then analyzed). LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Camster! You got the little symbol things!! Way to go![quote] I'm afraid you are getting off topic with your question[/quote] This coming from the guy who never brought up an ex cathedra statement on the thread he started on ex cathedra.... Ah yes Jesus's brother James.. What to make of that? The greek word Adelphos is clearly used in reference to James. But wait.. adelphos actually can be used two ways? Why yes it can mean brother and it can mean cousin. Want more compelling evidence? How's about when Jesus commends the care of Mary to the apostle John. "Mother here is your son" . Why would Jesus do that if he had siblings? Perhaps he didn't think James was responsible enough? Littleles, multiple families travelled in clans back then. The care of the children was dispersed throughout the clan. All the children within the clan were considered to be adelphos. It is possible that James wasn't even a blood relation but simply a member of the same clan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 (edited) Hi hot stuff, If what you say is correct, please then, give an example from the Greek Gospels, Epistles, or Josephus of the word "adelphos" referring to a cousin. And are you claiming with regard to Jesus' brothers, "adelphos" meant "cousins" by all writers and in all cases? LittleLes Edited April 5, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 (edited) [quote]If what you say is correct, please then, give an example from the Greek Gospels, Epistles, or Josephus of the word "adelphos" referring to a cousin.[/quote] How's about just pulling up a Greek/English dictionary? You state definitively that James was a biological brother. I show that there is more than one meaning to the word adelphos. Clan member, blood cousin, brother. See this is the difference between study and owning an encyclopedia. Edited April 5, 2005 by jaime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 07:26 AM'] Hi Ayed, I'm afraid you are getting off topic with your question. But, yes. The Gospels, Epistles, and even the writings of Josephus, the contemporary Jewish historian, all written in Greek which has a specific word for biological brother, claim that Jesus had brothers. But St. Jerome changed these "brothers" into 'cousins" for doctrinal reasons. LittleLes [/quote] I have been waiting for weeks for that to come up [u]brother[/u] Littleles. You are wrong again [u]brother[/u] Littleles. I would like to see where you come up with that argument brother Littleles. Have you ever wondered why I have been calling you [u]BROTHER[/u] Littleles for the last month? It is precisely to show that you have no legs to stand on [u]brother[/u] Littleles. This is in direct relation to Genesis 14:16, 29:15. Yes, the old argument of [i]adelphos[/i]. Do you know the problem with Greek? The problem with Greek is translation. You can find as many scholars to support our position as support yours. Hardly definitive. However, when we look at a static (not dead) language like Latin, we see that there can be no argument as to meaning. [quote]nonne iste est faber filius Mariae [u]frater[/u] Iacobi et Ioseph et Iudae et Simonis nonne et sorores eius hic nobiscum sunt et scandalizabantur in illo (Mark 6:3)[/quote] [quote]ego Iohannes [u]frater[/u] vester et particeps in tribulatione et regno et patientia in Iesu fui in insula quae appellatur Patmos propter verbum Dei et testimonium Iesu. (Revelation 1:9)[/quote] [quote]et misimus Timotheum [u]fratrem[/u] nostrum et ministrum Dei in evangelio Christi ad confirmandos vos et exhortandos pro fide vestra (1 Thessalonians 3:2)[/quote] It is clear that in the times in which these books were written; the word brother is used to mean more than blood brother. There is nothing that proves your point. Brother has many connotations, wouldn't you agree [u]brother[/u] Littleles? Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hi fives Camster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted April 5, 2005 Author Share Posted April 5, 2005 Patience and strategy.... bravo. Oh ya, hot stuff, I also liked that bit about the eggs. Les? What is the Church? My original question. Is it the pillar and bulwark of truth like scripture says? If not, why be in it? Will it ever be prevailed against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='Apr 5 2005, 08:15 AM'] Hi fives Camster [/quote] batck atcha..... Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Sorry Jamie, Please review the messages on this thread. I did not state "definitively" that James was Jesus biological brother. I think someone else started that subthread. Yes, there can sometimes be more than one meaning to the word aldelphos. But are you seriously suggesting that all the scripture and epistle writers as well as Josephus always meant cousin when they wrote brother? But also of interest, please give me an example from the Greek (not Jerome's Latin) New Testament where the word adelphos is used to mean cousin. Little Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 [quote] και ερχεται η μητηρ αυτου και οι αδελφοι αυτου και εξω στηκοντες απεστειλαν προς αυτον καλουντες αυτον[/quote] There ya go Littles!! In case you don't recognize it, its Matthew 3:31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Apr 5 2005, 08:49 AM'] Sorry Jamie, Please review the messages on this thread. I did not state "definitively" that James was Jesus biological brother. I think someone else started that subthread. Yes, there can sometimes be more than one meaning to the word aldelphos. But are you seriously suggesting that all the scripture and epistle writers as well as Josephus always meant cousin when they wrote brother? But also of interest, please give me an example from the Greek (not Jerome's Latin) New Testament where the word adelphos is used to mean cousin. Little Les [/quote] Twisty noodle. You said: [quote]But, yes. The Gospels, Epistles, and even the writings of Josephus, the contemporary Jewish historian, all written in Greek which has a specific word for biological brother, claim that Jesus had brothers.[/quote] What were you inferring there? My position? I don't think so brother Littleles. Sorry, brother Littleles, but the Vulgate is authoritative. At the very least, it holds the same weight as any Greek Translation, if not more. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hi hot stuff, I'm sorry that I can't verify your claimed reference in Matthew 3:31. My Catholic bible has only 17 verses in Matthew 3, not 31. But my question remains, do all the writers of the gospels, epistles, and Josephus really mean cousin when they use the word adelphos? In the military, we sometimes (behind his back, of course) referred to the commander as "the man." But when I use the word "man," clearly I'm not always referring to this exception and always meaning the commander. Do you understand the difference? LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Oops sorry try Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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