What I Have Learned From Phatmass

[Jake Huether]

but if there's one specific thing that actually does turn me off, it would be the church's lack of teaching and leading people to Christ throughout their lives.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that if you throw out all the secular carp that is spued about the Church and flip on EWTN and watch / read the COUNTLESS lives of the Saints, you'd not be able to make this comment.

Mulls, there are so many people that have lived their Catholic Faith and brought people to Christ it isn't even funny! I'm so ashamed and enraged that the secular / non-Catholic world would try to hide such success!

Read up on St. Gerard Majella. How many people were converted because of him.

It is very very sad if you honestly believe the Catholic Church doesn't teach and lead people to Christ.

It doesn't say anything about the Church (which does inDouche teach like this). What it says is that there are too many cafeteria Catholics who need to be fired up or kicked out. We need to better define what it is to be "Catholic", not just in name. Mulls, you cannot rely on what "Catholics" say. Rely instead on what the Church says! And read about the lives of those worthy enough to REALLY be called Catholics.

Peace, brother.

[mulls]

It doesn't say anything about the Church (which does inDouche teach like this). What it says is that there are too many cafeteria Catholics who need to be fired up or kicked out. We need to better define what it is to be "Catholic", not just in name. Mulls, you cannot rely on what "Catholics" say. Rely instead on what the Church says!

i wish i saw this in action. who should do the "firing up" as you say?

the church!!

i know there are innumerable saintly stories and conversion stories and dedicated, devout, practicing catholics.

i also know countless people who were raised as catholics and now have nothing to do with their faith. you say it's their fault, i say it's the church's fault. as a young catholic, attending a catholic school, i was never explicity told why i should live a holy life, or how to get to heaven, or the dangers of hell. i was told only how to appease God (church, sacraments, good works) and to be thankful for His blessings.

since you say the church cares so much, i would love to see a public catholic crusade to reach out to the protestants, to bring home the separated bretheren.

if it cares so much, i would like to hear the priest speak about why we should bring out families back to mass, why they need to go to confession, and why they need to receive the eucharist.

i want the church to make the bold declaration that IT is the only way to salvation, through the grace of God and blood of Christ, if it cares so much.

i am happy that many of you attend parishes and live in dicoese' where these are regular practices. i am happy that many of you have found true fullfilment in God through the catholic church. but personally i have never seen anything of the sort. catholics in my area, unless they have innate faith and are extremely devout, are basically left out in the cold. they have no reason to believe that the church cares about them. they don't feel guilty about not attending mass, and for some reason they think all of the things they did as a child (sacraments, altar servers, etc) were all worthless. but they still think they are going to heaven because they were baptized and basically "put in their time."

if the church is aware of this general apathy, it needs to do something about it. if it is not aware, then somebody needs to tell it.

[hyperdulia again]

ONE, holy, catholic, and apostolic CHURCH.

[Anna]

mulls,

Each individual is responsible for his own eternal soul. He must give an accounting before the Just Judge.

If someone is lukewarm, we are told, the Lord will spit him out like vomit.

Our parishes are full of lukewarm people. Those who expect the Church to jump when they're having a wedding or baptism or funeral, but who don't honor the Sabbath regularly (unless Christmas and Easter are considered 'regularly!")

These people have free will. They went to Catholic schools right alongside me. They were taught the same Faith in the same classroom by the same teachers. It isn't that they weren't taught, it's that the teaching didn't stick. The seeds weren't sowed upon fertile soil. Christ taught that some would sprout and grow and flourish, and others would wilt. Sometimes, they do come back. Sometimes a personal tragedy brings them back to Christ's Sacraments (which are gifts He gave us, and which He would like us to use.)

So, if you're saying that you left Christ's Church because the other people were all just too lukewarm for your liking, how very sad that Christ is not only ignored in His Church, but also abandoned.

What will you tell the Lord when you face Him? Sorry, Lord, I had to go where the fire was....I would fear what He might say in reply....

Lastly, remember that if every individual in that Church was to just like a bump on a log, the great cloud of witnesses is also present, worshipping the Most High together with the heavenly hosts....The spiritual power of the Mass does not depend on the faithful's enthusiasm.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited November 3, 2003 by Anna

[Dave]

Mulls, it's true that a lot of Catholics have been poorly catechized and evangelized. But to blame it on the Church is a cop-out. What do you think Pope John Paul II has been doing these past several years? Resting on his laurels? No, he's been traveling the world, preaching the Gospel!

And just because you had priests who didn't emphasize the Eucharist, hell, salvation, confession, etc. doesn't mean that all priests are that way. There are NUMEROUS priests like that out there; the problem is that you don't look hard enough!

And over the centuries the Church has defined and reiterated that it's the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ. If people refuse to listen, it's not the Church's fault. Not everyone listened to Jesus during His public ministry. Was that His fault? Of course not!

And to say the Church is either unaware of or doesn't care about the general apathy out there is just plain ludicrous. Our Holy Father has been emphasizing the truths of the faith, as I said earlier. And Mother Angelica has the TV station EWTN, which has helped combat apathy and reach thousands, maybe even MILLIONS of people! And let's not forget the new generation of priests, who are mostly very orthodox and unafraid to preach the truth no matter how unpopular it may be.

Mulls, the things you said in your previous post are nothing but cop-outs. The problem isn't the Church's fault. Rather, it's your own fault because you haven't looked hard enough for faithful Catholics. I'd like to add that your attitude toward the Church strikes me as extremely judgmental. Well, you know what Jesus said about that.

[mulls]

" Mulls, it's true that a lot of Catholics have been poorly catechized and evangelized. But to blame it on the Church is a cop-out. "

then who else is there to blame it on? the individual? i think that's the cop-out.

i'm not copping-out of anything. i have nothing to hide, nothing to avoid. i'm being as honest as i can possibly be....i figured i owed at least that much to everyone here for being so good to me.

i do know of faithful catholics, i already emphasized that, and i am thankful for that. i'm speaking of the majority (yes yes narrow is the road, don't come back at me with that).

i urge everyone to re-read my previous two posts closely, and carefully, with an open mind. it's about as honest and open as i have ever been.

[cmotherofpirl]

Mulls thank you with being honest with us

But this is not a problem of just the Catholic church, it is all of society.

We have lost our soul.

It started in 1968 (although it had deep roots) when people decided to pursue selfish pleasure and the culture of me, instead of the sacrifices and self-giving of family life.

It culminated in Roe vs Wade that a mother can legally kill her children.

Now we routinely kill the old, the maimed, the less than perfect, the helpless, and the unwanted.

We make babies in glass jars and can now combine species for fun and profit.

We have lost our humanity.

The only place on the whole earth that is trying to hold the line and take back the culture is the Catholic Church.

[Uncle Gus]

Mulls, please point out to us the one perfect church. Thank you.

[littleflower+JMJ]

could claim to say the same thing but i would never cease to be catholic because the humans are not perfect. Its God who's perfect, not us. and if your looking for perfect people, good luck.

and i see some of those "occurances" also mulls, we're not blind. but we do something about it by living out our faith and learning about it and sharing about it. but like cmom said, its everywhere, our society and culture is drifting farther and farther from God.

i understand where you are coming from....but i'm being very honest when i say thats not a good enough reason to reject the Catholic Church.

the Catholic Church does in fact try to bring our separated brothers and sisters home mulls, but not all of them are as willing to learn what the Catholic Church teaches.

The catholic church does teach salvation, etc. etc. God said he would never leave us orphan mulls and the Catholic Church is PROOF of this promise.

how can we doubt what God himself said? 2,000 years! and i trust God's gonna take care of His Church for another 2,000 years.

my history teacher back in high school called all of us catholics "sitting ducks" because we didtn' know who, what when where, about our own faith, what we believed in or anything about our religion. he laughed in my face. until I started answering him back and for once he was quiet.

st. francis of assisi also saw the Church lacking in evangelization but instead of rejecting, he started his own crusade and converted millions through his faith and made things better and built the Church up from within making ever stronger.

today we have catholic apologitics ( http://www.surprisedbytruth.com http://www.catholic.com ) who are defending our Holy Mother Church thru teaching us catholics are faith and what we're all about.

maybe you should become catholic and fix whats going on in your neck of the woods mulls. God needs ppl like you to help His One True Church.

we are his hands and arms. and everything you decide upon is up to you, we can only do so much mulls and the rest is yours.

i recommend at least taking RCIA classes if theres a good class offered around you.

somethings you need to hear in person to understand.

God bless you mulls and know im praying for you!

your sister in christ,

flowery

@)>~~~~

[mulls]

you people aren't reading my posts closely enough

Mulls, please point out to us the one perfect church. Thank you.

gus, if you read closely, i already covered myself for this question...

i don't believe lies about the church, and i don't lie to others about what it teaches. i do explain what the church really does teach, to the best of my ability, and why i don't believe it to be correct.

i don't pretend to have all the answers, so i advise anybody i talk to about this situation to read the bible and study other sources for themselves.

[Donna]

Mulls, thank you for clarifying.

Anna I agree with, and I have seen a certain type of Catholic too often as she describes.

I also think you have a true point that cannot be argued against.

Theses are not normal times in the Church. Statistically so as well. If Don John was the Pope you'd probably see the fire you want.

That kind of fire across the board in unabshed burning, to my limited knowledge and opinion, is in the Traditionalists.

And before anyone pounces on what I have written, get a copy of Pope Leo XIII's original full-length version of the St. Michael Prayer. And look at La Salette, which Blessed Pius IX wasn't too scandalized to read and make known, tho it contained very unsavory remarks about the cleregy, and the hierarchy.

And, read St. Pius X Pascendi. These Popes weren't afraid to say that there are enemies of the Church within her; and esp. Pius X acted accordingly with vigilance, brethren. Diocesan Vigilance Committee's; Bishops reporting regularly to Papa himself on Modernism in their diocese's; seminaries were not the Pink Palace, O no, Precious. No one, I believe even suspected of Modernism (the synthesis of all hereies) was allowed a position of power.

(But Mulls here we are talking of two distinct and different things.

And,

'tis not all bad in the Church. Look at how the PM-ers pray for you, and for me, both black sheep. What would I do without the PM prayers)!

Either way it does not matter. For the Church is the Fortress. I am talking about the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth. THAT is the Church. And we - and you, Mulls -are doomed without her.

May God bless you, and lead you to where He will.

[littleflower+JMJ]

mulls we care about ya don't ever forget that...why else would this thread be so long?

but i really don't understand how one cannot accept the Catholic Church, the pillar of truth and the foundation that for 2,000 the whole world has been riding on for morals, for truth, for guidance.....if we won't accept that....then where do we go?

if we cannot find truth in what Jesus himself established, where will we find it?

"Lord, to whom shall we go?"

John 6:63-68

its quite simple. there is no other.

God bless!

+JMJ

~flowery~

let it be said that there is never a good reason to leave/reject the Church. Mt 16:18 "the gates of hell will not prevail"

[jasJis]

mulls, mulls, mulls...

You are railing against human nature.

Why not be mad at God because He let's us sin and ignore and reject the gift of Grace He gives us? Why not be mad at Him because He allows people to sin and wreak evil on themselves and others who are innocent?

I am sure you are familiar with the bible stories of the Pearl of Great Price and the Treasure in the field? Both the Pearl and Treasure are our love for God. The Treasure in the field was walked and worked around for years before it was discovered. This seems to be what upsets you.

How can the Church allow people to wander around within it and be oblivious? I was one of those people. I went to 12 years of Catholic School with hardly an inkling of the requirement of personal commitment. Is that the Church's fault, or my own? I will tell you the greater part of it is my own fault. I knew and know many others who "got it" during school. Why did they, and not me? We went to the same schools and parish.

I'm a teacher for teens in preperation for Confirmation now. I see CCD kids and Catholic School kids. I've done if for a few years and personally know many dozens of stories. There are some typical attitudes of the kids, but no hard and fast rules. Many Catholic school kids are apathetic. But so are many CCD kids. Many are on-fire, but many are not. Kid's generally at that age aren't, but not all.

Grace is a gift, not a heavy burden. God calls and draws, but does not force. When I decided to take my Faith seriously, and I was open to any religion and denomination, the many avenues of Grace, and the complete understanding of human nature in the Catholic Church is where I went.

I know stupid priests. Mental nuns. A Church heirarchy encumbered with beauracracy. Bad decisions and examples by Catholic School teachers. Church volunteers and leaders that don't seem very Christian.

But it is about me and God personally. It's up to me if I get caught up in the failures of others and fail to see the graces in the Church. That's my fault. Maybe I'm supposed to help, instead of complain. Maybe I'm supposed to forgive other's tresspasses to the same degree I want God to forgive mine!

I have too many good Christian friends that are Baptist, Pentecostal, non-Denominational, etc., to think human perfection is always found in their Church either. Nor is God's grace absent from their Church.

You always find what you are looking for. If you look for more bad than good, you find it. If you look for all the bad and all the good, you just might get an accurate picture. We are save by Grace. It is about being open to Grace. Don't swallow a camel but choke on a mite.

[PedroX]

Mulls,

What about the Presbyterians who know longer know Calvinism? Or the Methodists who invoke the great spirit? Or growing number of unaffiliated or "non-denominational" churches who teach that there is no such thing as systematic theology? All of these are example of bad catechisis in our churches. The faith of Jesus Christ is suffering everywhere. We all lack a leadership that is brave and unafraid.

However, we as Catholics have the hope. We have the promise that the gates of Hell will not prevail. As I sit discouraged in my smoking room, I rest in the promise that one day we will win. Nuns will actually rejoice in the priceless depository of faith. Priests will fearlessly call us to the confessional and agree with us that we have sinned. The laity will begin to change to secular structures of injustice and leave the sacristry to the ordained. The oaths against modernism will come back and the local Ordinaries will be pastors and not CEO's. Oh, yes, we will win. It has been promised us. The question is, will you be with us? My prayers at Compline (night prayers) will remember you.

peace...

[cmotherofpirl]

Even though we don't like it, the wheat and the weeds grow together until harvest time. We would like to rip those weeds out, and see the wheat growing freely.

So the Lord says ok, I'll do it, I remove all the weedes right now.

And He comes and stands in front of you.

Humanity and humans are a mixed bag. If you live long enough and reflect on your life you will see sometimes you were the wheat , sometimes you were the weed.

And as my grandma said, some people are here just to show you how not to act.

At the general judgement we will stand before God and see how every word and action affected and changed each other and the world for good or ill.