What I Have Learned From Phatmass

[mulls]

this is in response to dave's question from my posting in robyn's thread:

May I ask why you've been turned off to the Catholic Church, considering that that's #1?  You told us why you left it in the first place, but why have you been further turned off to it?

to put it nice and simply, everything i have learned here has simply reinforced the reasons why i am not (or have not gone back to being) catholic.

yes, before anyone asks, i do understand all of your arguments.

i have learned enough to the point where i can play devil's advocate and defend catholocism, for the sake of argument, against a non-catholic. and trust me, this is not something which i take lightly or jokingly. i believe i defend it rather well and often have to correct people's misconceptions of catholocism, many of which i previously held on my own.

i know longer believe the common lies and misconceptions of catholocism. rather, i have learned what it truly teaches.

and i objectively, knowledgeably reject catholocism.

maybe not objectively, but you get the gist. what more can you ask for? i've spent many months here learning from all of you as well as other credible sources (specifcially the links that you all often provided). i have read conversion stories from protestantism to catholocism. i don't believe lies about the church, and i don't lie to others about what it teaches. i do explain what the church really does teach, to the best of my ability, and why i don't believe it to be correct.

i don't pretend to have all the answers, so i advise anybody i talk to about this situation to read the bible and study other sources for themselves. to be honest, i could turn everybody i know off from catholocism simply by spitting the common anti-catholic rhetoric in their faces, because simply they don't know any better. but i know that will not draw them closer to Christ, and i would not want to crumble the foundation on which they were raised just to prove a point, without them having God to show them the truth. and i have these conversations a lot, considering i'm basically the only protestant in my large circle of family and friends.

i do accept devout catholics as genuine christians, as i always have. i still believe christianity to be a heart condition, and if one's heart is set on Christ, you're fine in my book.

i hope God feels similarly.

God bless us all.

sean

Edited November 3, 2003 by mulls

[Anna]

So, mulls, you never did say what turns you off from the Catholic Faith...

What is it about the Church's teachings that is such a turn off for you personally?

[foundsheep]

Mulls, that is very well put as compared to the prvious thread.

[cmotherofpirl]

THank you mulls.

[littleflower+JMJ]

:huh: so your saying all we need to do now is pray for you?

okay!!!! :D

B) just kidding!! (though your always in my prayers!! )

luv ya mulls!

thanks for taking the time to learn/read what you have while you've been here....

God bless!

your sister in christ,

flowery+JMJ

[IXpenguin21]

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

[Uncle Gus]

So that question again, Mulls, was "what turned you away from the Catholic Church?"

[mulls]

anna and gus,

the fact that i don't believe in what the church teaches is all that is needed to turn me off. when i came here i didn't understand the praying to mary, saints, rosary, purgatory self-mortification, blah blah blah etc. etc. ect.

i do understand these things now, which makes my beliefs stronger because i now reject them for what they truly are instead of rejecting them based on misconceptions.

but if there's one specific thing that actually does turn me off, it would be the church's lack of teaching and leading people to Christ throughout their lives. i wish the church would stress salvation, hell, and living a dedicated, holy life from the age when one can start understanding these things until they are on their death bed.

thanks flowery :D

[Theologian in Training]

Well said mulls. We cannot change your mind, we can only give you the tools you need. You have been more than generous in letting us show you those tools, and allowing yourself to learn how to use them.

Now, our part is to pray. It is one thing to learn belief, and quite another to believe. We cannot instill faith because it is not for us to give. Faith, Hope and Love, are all gifts; graces from God alone. It is impossible to give you a supernatural grace from human hands.

Our part is to pray...and pray we must.

God Bless you mulls, you are in my prayers.

[yiannii]

I thought the Church's mission was to lead people to Christ throughout their lives.

[ironmonk]

anna and gus,

the fact that i don't believe in what the church teaches is all that is needed to turn me off.  when i came here i didn't understand the praying to mary, saints, rosary, purgatory self-mortification, blah blah blah etc. etc. ect. 

i do understand these things now, which makes my beliefs stronger because i now reject them for what they truly are instead of rejecting them based on misconceptions.

but if there's one specific thing that actually does turn me off, it would be the church's lack of teaching and leading people to Christ throughout their lives.  i wish the church would stress salvation, hell, and living a dedicated, holy life from the age when one can start understanding these things until they are on their death bed.

thanks flowery   :D

So, all the Christians for the first 1500 years were wrong, and you know more than them?

We believe what the Apostles taught.

We believe in the Communion of Saints.

And the Church does teach people, it's up to the people to pay attention. The Church does not force itself on anyone. If people don't learn, it's not the Churches fault because there are plenty of resources out there.

And if you say you don't believe in Purgatory, then you deny the bible. The Catholic Church didn't invent purgatory. Purgatory was and is taught by the Jews. Believed by Christ, and the Apostles, and all Christians up until after 1517 AD.

If you deny the proofs for the things mentioned, then come up with a better explination of the proofs. If you cannot or refuse to, then you are only lying to yourself, and you really need to look at yourself and ask why you reject the facts given, is it a pride issue, maybe you feel that since you left the Church, the Church cannot be wrong, maybe your mad at the Church because you didn't pay attention - so you blame the Church for not learning. Come to Christ.

i.e. Where the bible came from and by what authority, verses that show purgatory, the fact that the Jews have always taught it, the fact of the verses that show communion with saints, the fact of all the writings from the first Christians prove it...

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited November 3, 2003 by ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

Mulls the Church does teach and lead people to salvation.

Otherwise I would not be Catholic.

You can lead a horse to water, you can't MAKE them drink

.

[Dave]

Ya know, Mulls, the Bible and Sacred Tradition are clear as to the truth of the Catholic faith. Why would you reject the Church's teachings for what they truly are, as you say you do? Sounds to me like you're relying on your feelings and opinions. I've told you this before, and I'll say this again -- if you rely on your feelings and opinions, you will ALWAYS be led astray.

What makes you think that what you believe is correct? Jesus' Church CANNOT err. I'm sorry, but it's arrogance to think you know better than the Church Jesus Christ founded. The Church has been teaching the same things for 2000 years, and these teachings come from CHRIST. Who are you to think you know better than Christ and His Church? That's essentially the sin of Adam and Eve -- they disobeyed God's command because they thought they knew better than him.

And let me say one other thing -- if a person knows, or at least ought to know, that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ founded and its doctrines are true, then they cannot be saved. Why? Because to reject the Catholic Church is to reject Jesus Christ.

[Donna]

Mulls, thank you for your honesty.

Since you want nothing (is that right?) of Catholicism, I guess you won't be around much?

But I must say I don't at all understand you writing that you wish the Church stressed salvation, hell, leading a holy and dedicated life from the age until people can understand these things.

She most certainly does; in our home we strive to place everything within the love of God and the light of eternity. This manifests itself hopefully in most of what we say, do and think. It touches our very motives, and at least my husband and I try to let it do so, until the point of no return.

Catholicism has taught this to a stumbling family, and given grace to persevere thus far. But there are mainy saintly examples.

Most Catholics I know pray without ceasing and try above all for that union with the Triune God, through Jesus Christ. Their lives and works reflect this.

How much more involved can one be than that?

[Dave]

but if there's one specific thing that actually does turn me off, it would be the church's lack of teaching and leading people to Christ throughout their lives.  i wish the church would stress salvation, hell, and living a dedicated, holy life from the age when one can start understanding these things until they are on their death bed.

I missed this quote. OF COURSE the Church stresses salvation, hell, and living a dedicated, holy life! True, there are priests and other Catholics out there who don't, but you fail to realize that's THEIR OWN fault, not the Church's. Don't blame the Church for the faults and shortcomings of its members.