Pledging allegiance to the USA flag...

[DojoGrant]

Oh, and unless my memory if fuzzy, they frequently say the Pledge of Allegiance, and it was through a lot of their work that "Under God" was inserted into the pledge.

[philothea]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 30 2005, 02:29 PM']A link to a succinct article would be the kewlest.  I'll wait till you get back from Oz.[/quote]
[i]There's no place like home... there's no place like home...[/i]

Now where was I?

Oh yeah. Well, I don't know if I can suggest a useful article. You can look at wikipedia [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism_%28heresy%29"]here[/url] for a short summary. While that entry does cover the basics, it didn't make any sense to me until I read a whole bunch of other stuff too. The link to "Syllabus of Errors" on that page is helpful.

One problem is that there are several different things that are called the "Americanist heresy" or "Americanism" and most people who use the term or write about it are trying to make a political point and so are slanting their story to their particular bias. Also, there were several (maybe) heresies that all got the same name.

The most relevant official document is [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm"]Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae[/url] [i]Concerning New Opinions, Virtue, Nature and Grace, with Regard to Americanism[/i] by Pope Leo XIII. It's not very long.

And did you know that if you read enough encyclicals all in one day, you start to hallucinate? Maybe that's just me....

Have fun.

[philothea]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Mar 30 2005, 04:32 PM'] Do you guys support the Knights of Columbus?

Because their 4th degree is all about patriotism. [/quote]
I imagine I'm one of the guys you're talking about, and I have to say I have never had any interaction at all with the Knights of Columbus -- I'm a convert, and there haven't been any active in any of the parishes I've attended.

I looked around for info. Seems like a nice organization... though I do wonder what it's like in other countries, with their patron being Christopher Columbus, and the symbolic colors red white and blue!

And yeah, you're right about the KoC getting "under God" inserted into the pledge. That was in the 50s, meant to serve as a contrast to Communism.

I'm still pondering patriotism. I think I may make a poll, once I clarify my thoughts.

[jasJis]

[quote name='philothea' date='Mar 31 2005, 09:47 PM'] [One problem is that there are several different things that are called the "Americanist heresy" or "Americanism" and most people who use the term or write about it are trying to make a political point and so are slanting their story to their particular bias. Also, there were several (maybe) heresies that all got the same name.

The most relevant official document is [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13teste.htm"]Testem Benevolentiae Nostrae[/url] [i]Concerning New Opinions, Virtue, Nature and Grace, with Regard to Americanism[/i] by Pope Leo XIII. It's not very long. [/quote]
Thanks for the link. I read it. Americanism in this encyclical has nothing to do with misplaced patritism. It has to do with the welcoming nature of Americans to other cultures that has led American Catholics to desire to tone down Doctrines and Dogmas in the hope that it will encourage seperated brethren (other Christians) to come back to Catholicism, true Christianity. It also calls Americanism the adventuring spirit to try new things and bring it to the Liturgy.
I'm sure the Archbishop in LA hasn't read this recently!

I'm not sure what it has to do with patriotism per se, but it does challenge Catholics not to embrace everything that it Americanism. I think this might be a great topic on another thread. I actually enjoyed reading this and think it is very appropriate for Catholics in America today.

[kateri05]

jas, what did you mean about the LA Archbishop? he's my cardinal, so i'm just curious.....

unless you're refering to the tendency to "try new things" in liturgy in LA... cuz yea. boo. everyone does it

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Mar 29 2005, 02:41 PM'] I believe that was talking about Taxes. Not pledging allegiance to certain countries or flags.

The scriptures also say "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. ...Matthew 6:24 "So the verse on rendering unto caesar has nothing to do with pledging allegiance.

Many americans, even catholics in america make the fatal mistake of trying to serve two masters, they end up hating their own church authority and favoring the countries authority. "cough" "cough" liberals. [/quote]
Indeed. However it can be applied more broadly. The principle is that the government requires certain things of you. Your loyalty is one of those things. Often such loyalty is expressed by pledging allegiance.

I don't know how it can be considered serving two masters. Obeying the laws of the US rarely contraindicates obeying the laws of ones religion. The few instances in which it does usually involves protecting others' rights. However, those instances don't really apply to catholics.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Timothy' date='Mar 29 2005, 03:43 PM'] I am a taxpayer, and born in the U.S. that makes me American. It concerns me that you feel that you should be a proud American in light of all the horrible things we are causing around the world right now. Just because one is American does not demand that the person be proud. A person should feel proud, because they feel they are accomplishing Christ will. Do you honestly feel that is what America is doing? [/quote]
You are making a big mistake here. When one pledges allegiance to their country it is to their country and the principles on which it stands, not to the current administration. America is founded on excellent and sound principles -- it doesn't always live up to them (as a christian you should understand this better than anyone), but that doesn't make the foundation any less solid. I patently disagree with many things that occur in the US and that the US does. Despite that, I am solidly patriotic because I think we have the ability to be an amazing country.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='CarpeDiem88' date='Mar 29 2005, 06:26 PM'] Okay, what you people are saying has nothing to do with the politics of the country. You're not pledging to that. You're pledging to what you live in. What entity that has kept you alive. If you think a couple of ill-fated events are a problem and you don't want to pledge allegiance, then you need to get your head out of the sand. I just find it pure disrespect to have someone say that pledging allegiance to our flag is wrong. It's already under scrutiny from the stupid athiests, now why is it under scrutiny by Catholics? We of all people should have nothing against it. After all, it says UNDER GOD in it. We're UNDER GOD. Not saying our political officials are all with it, but I'm saying remember that the country is democratic and you're still alive.

If this is what it's coming to, I'm moving to Brazil. [/quote]
Word...mostly.

[Socrates]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Apr 1 2005, 11:39 AM'] You are making a big mistake here. When one pledges allegiance to their country it is to their country and the principles on which it stands, not to the current administration. America is founded on excellent and sound principles -- it doesn't always live up to them (as a christian you should understand this better than anyone), but that doesn't make the foundation any less solid. I patently disagree with many things that occur in the US and that the US does. Despite that, I am solidly patriotic because I think we have the ability to be an amazing country. [/quote]
Wow - Burnsspivey actually said something I can basically agree with! (must be a sign of the End Times!)

[Cam42]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Apr 1 2005, 04:00 PM'] Wow - Burnsspivey actually said something I can basically agree with! (must be a sign of the End Times!) [/quote]
Not according to brother Littleles.......

Cam

[IamCatholic]

Well, pledging allegiance to the American flag would not be wrong because of a flawed decision in this individual case. I think it would be wrong if the principles of America (or Republicanism and secularism in general) are wrong. As Catholics, we believe that secularism is wrong, so to pledge allegiance to a "political entity" that religiously (no pun intended) upholds this principle is wrong, as far as I can tell. We cannot fully embrace America and the American system. As far as I understand, I think that to embrace America would be Americanism, which is condemned by the Church. I could be wrong on this, but if Americanism is condemned, why would we support the cause of the heresy (which is AMerica)? Anyway, I think it is a bad idea to pledge our allegiance to a modern, secular government, especially when it is not one that recognizes the Church and Christ and the authority of God and morals.

[jasJis]

What small minds. burnspivey is right. Read her post again.

God gives leaders their authority and allows us to influence them. When we transfer our authority to leaders, either through apathetic inaction, or voting for them, we are allowed to influence it. When leaders use forms of tyranny to wrest authority from us, then it's illegitimate and we are allowed to wrest it back.

America allows us to vote for leaders that share our morality. Often America has been the moral leader. Don't let its' human imperfections deny what good it has, and can, accomplish. Like all things human, governments need Christian moral influence to improve and do good. We have both rights AND responsibilities when we pledge allegience to a Government that is orderd to be below God's Authority.

Edit to add the following from the Catechism:[quote][b]1918[/b]
"There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God" (Rom 13:1).

[b]1919[/b] Every human community needs an authority in order to endure and develop.

[b]1920[/b] "The political community and public authority are based on human nature and therefore . . . belong to an order established by God" (GS 74 § 3).

[b]1921[/b] Authority is exercised legitimately if it is committed to the common good of society. To attain this it must employ morally acceptable means.

[b]1922[/b] The diversity of political regimes is legitimate, provided they contribute to the good of the community.

[b]1923[/b] Political authority must be exercised within the limits of the moral order and must guarantee the conditions for the exercise of freedom.

[b]1924[/b] The common good comprises "the sum total of social conditions which allow people, either as groups or as individuals, to reach their fulfillment more fully and more easily" (GS 26 § 1).

[b]1925[/b] The common good consists of three essential elements: respect for and promotion of the fundamental rights of the person; prosperity, or the development of the spiritual and temporal goods of society; the peace and security of the group and of its members.

[b]1926 [/b]The dignity of the human person requires the pursuit of the common good. Everyone should be concerned to create and support institutions that improve the conditions of human life.

[b]1927[/b] It is the role of the state to defend and promote the common good of civil society. The common good of the whole human family calls for an organization of society on the international level.[/quote]

Edited April 3, 2005 by jasJis