Fidei Defensor Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1349464' date='Aug 4 2007, 09:48 AM']Instead of calling me "stupid" but using nicer words to say so, why not accept that I do not debate Catholicism based on YOUR premises one of which is only the teachings count and not the actions. The official paperwork on the wall means nothing if it is not being implemented. For example the Catholic Church confesses to support the first commandment officially, in CCC, elsewhere etc, but the actions of the Catholic interfaithism both done by Pope, Cardinals and down the line breaks the first commandment all the time. Quesiton for you.. Do you believe Ted Kennedy is a Catholic? {I dont believe Joel Osteen is really a born again Christian}[/quote] No. He claims to be one, but if he doesn't "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" then he has no grounds in claiming to be Catholic. I'm not employing the "paperwork" ploy, I'm pointing out that members of the Church don't make the teachings, they follow the teachings. So if they are in error, that does not make the teaching in error, just the person. If a person claims to be Christian, but don't follow the "official Christian paperwork", are they Christian? Does this make Christianity invalid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 Ted Kennedy excommunicated himself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 4, 2007 Author Share Posted August 4, 2007 excommunication does not make one a non-Catholic (it's proto-protestant to say it does). Mr.Kennedy is in error, but he is a baptised member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. He is a Catholic. A bad one but a Catholic nonetheless. Is he born again? yup that happened at his baptism seventy years ago or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 luckily, there is no once saved, always saved, so its not like chappaquidick has a free pass to heaven or anything. of course, thats not really fair, as he may have repented from all that, but i will say that his current support of abortion and pro-death laws have resulted in an whatschamacallit excommunication (the kind where you do it to yourself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 [quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1349625' date='Aug 4 2007, 03:31 PM']excommunication does not make one a non-Catholic (it's proto-protestant to say it does). Mr.Kennedy is in error, but he is a baptised member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. He is a Catholic. A bad one but a Catholic nonetheless. Is he born again? yup that happened at his baptism seventy years ago or so.[/quote] Yes...once you're a Catholic...always a Catholic. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 4, 2007 Share Posted August 4, 2007 technically, i think yes, although i would say, a "separated brethren." i say this because, lets say a catholic becomes protestant and then comes back to the Church, they don't get REintiatiated, they go to confession and start again. those indelible marks on your soul from baptism and confirmation are really hard to get off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 the excommunicated are denied communion for the good of their own souls it is not an act of expulsion from the church. and ted kennedy should be (in my opinion)canonically excommunicated, but has not been. so...i suppose as his bishop and the pope are both aware of him and his positions and have not disciplined him, that they believe allowing him to participate in the church's sacramental life is good for his immortal soul. WE have no business second guessing them...anymore than we do second guessing them about the feeney's and lefevre's of the world..which i guess means i retract the statement that he should be excommunicated and the statement that he's a bad catholic. he is my misguided brother and now amount of posturing for misguided protestant brothers will make me deny him. so there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 5, 2007 Author Share Posted August 5, 2007 and replace proto-prot with proto-mormon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 (edited) [quote name='hyperdulia again' post='1349625' date='Aug 4 2007, 02:31 PM']excommunication does not make one a non-Catholic (it's proto-protestant to say it does). Mr.Kennedy is in error, but he is a baptised member of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. He is a Catholic. A bad one but a Catholic nonetheless. Is he born again? yup that happened at his baptism seventy years ago or so.[/quote] Excommunication does make one no longer a member of the Holy Catholic Church. The excommunicated are cut off from communion with the Church. From the Catechism of the Council of Trent, my emphasis added: [quote][b]The Catechism of the Council of Trent:[/b] Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church [b]Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons.[/b] Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised. Finally, [b]excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent.[/b] [url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tcreed09.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/mast...nt/tcreed09.htm[/url][/quote] [quote name='Ora et Labora' post='1349770' date='Aug 4 2007, 06:16 PM']Yes...once you're a Catholic...always a Catholic. Right? [/quote] Not exactly. A person who is a member of the Holy Catholic Church can become a person who is not a member of the Holy Catholic Church by committing heresy or schism or by incurring excommunication. Edited August 5, 2007 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ora et Labora Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Well, I heard that if you were once a Catholic (for example) and then later on in your life you become...Baptist....you're still a baptized Catholic, which means you don't have to be baptized again, even though you haven't lived in communion with the Church for several years! That's what I meant. Is that right? And I knew all of the things Tyler mentioned above could happen... Sorry for going off topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted August 5, 2007 Share Posted August 5, 2007 Ora, I am not considered a "Catholic" thought I was baptized and confirmed as one. I am a "heretic" by your churches teachings. as this poster quoted... [quote]QUOTE The Catechism of the Council of Trent: Those Who Are Not Members Of The Church Hence there are but three classes of persons excluded from the Church's pale: infidels, heretics and schismatics, and excommunicated persons. Infidels are outside the Church because they never belonged to, and never knew the Church, and were never made partakers of any of her Sacraments. [b]Heretics and schismatics are excluded from the Church, because they have separated from her and belong to her only as deserters belong to the army from which they have deserted. It is not, however, to be denied that they are still subject to the jurisdiction of the Church, inasmuch as they may be called before her tribunals, punished and anathematised.[/b] Finally, excommunicated persons are not members of the Church, because they have been cut off by her sentence from the number of her children and belong not to her communion until they repent. [url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/mast...nt/tcreed09.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/mast...nt/tcreed09.htm[/url][/quote] That part in bold is kind of scary, that is attitude that ran the inquisitions. So anyone unforunate enough to be BORN Catholic... What people here dont realize that among all the SEPERATED BRETHERN talk, that only applies to PROTS and Evangs. who were born so. Those who are EX-CATHOLICS are in a different category. The Dalai Lama according to Catholic teaching has much more of a chance of heaven then me even though I confess Jesus Christ. I used to have some Catholics online claim us ex-Catholics were still Catholics, I said NO WAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 maybe i'm not that smart, but it seems to me that membership in the church can be marred and damaged but only severed by the flames of hell..if baptism makes a catholic...if we do not rebaptize reverts, or even validly baptised prots, then it would seem that they are members of the church...imperfectly...like any of us when we are in a state of mortal sin...anywho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kateri05 Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 yes, VII says that hyper, imperfect communion. budge is catholic where she likes it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted August 6, 2007 Share Posted August 6, 2007 Yep ... Budge is one of us. Ironic, that ... we'll claim her, but she won't claim us ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted August 6, 2007 Author Share Posted August 6, 2007 on excommunication: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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