Got a question here

[delta557]

Ok, I've thought a lot about this whole deal with her, and it's a delicate issue. My question is, at what point does her parents struggle to keep her alive become selfish? She's been brain damaged and done nothing for 15 years, unable to survive without the help of a hospital. And I know that we need to defend life, but what will happen if we win the battle and get her back on the feeding tube? Is she just going to spend another 10 years in a hospital bed? That's more cruel than letting her die now, because you're just prolonging the length of time till she meets God, isn't it? I've also heard people say about this topic that we can't "play God" by making the decision to let her die. But aren't [i]we[/i] the ones playing God? She's supposed to be dead, as far as nature intends. But it's the doctors and her parents that are keeping her from doing what God intended for her to do. If anybody can answer these questions, please do so! I'm quite distraught over this!

[delta557]

I would also like to add that I'm quite pleased that though a lot of America thinks she should die, Bush went ahead and fought for her, though his efforts may be in vain.

[delta557]

I would also like to add that I'm quite pleased that though a lot of America thinks she should die, Bush went ahead and fought for her, though his efforts may be in vain.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]That's more cruel than letting her die now, because you're just prolonging the length of time till she meets God, isn't it?[/quote]

Suffering is an inescapable part of human existence. Do you think people living in the slums of calcutta enjoy living that way? Do you think the family who can barely afford to put food on the table enjoy living that way? Do you think depressed people enjoy living that way? They don't enjoy their situation any more than Terri Shiavo does. But that doesn't mean they can kill themselves to escape their situation. Christ came redeem our suffering, not eliminate it.

[quote]I've also heard people say about this topic that we can't "play God" by making the decision to let her die. But aren't we the ones playing God? She's supposed to be dead, as far as nature intends.[/quote]

Of course nature "intends" for her to die if we don't feed her and give her water. The same can be said for infants. Food and water are not extraordinary medical treatments. They are basic necessities of human existence, and we have to provide them. Food and water differ from life support machines in that we don't provide the beating of the heart. It is a natural function which directs itself, and so the Church does not demand you go to extraordinary measures to keep the heart beating. Food and water does not direct itself, but is something which must be manually given, whether by parents to infants, by ourselves to ourselves, or by us to the elderly.

Edited March 27, 2005 by Eremite

[geetarplayer]

Just because it's popular doesn't make it right.

-Mark

[musturde]

wait, isnt the reason why she hasnt done anything because they haven't given her treatment? Or has she recieved it?

[Craftygrl06]

she hasn't received treatment or tests for years.

[CajunPirate]

I doubt that a Supreme Court Justice would post his e-mail address publicly. We can but pray.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='delta557' date='Mar 27 2005, 01:48 AM']Ok, I've thought a lot about this whole deal with her, and it's a delicate issue.  My question is, at what point does her parents struggle to keep her alive become selfish?  She's been brain damaged and done nothing for 15 years, unable to survive without the help of a hospital.  And I know that we need to defend life, but what will happen if we win the battle and get her back on the feeding tube? Is she just going to spend another 10 years in a hospital bed? That's more cruel than letting her die now, because you're just prolonging the length of time till she meets God, isn't it?  I've also heard people say about this topic that we can't "play God" by making the decision to let her die.  But aren't [i]we[/i] the ones playing God?  She's supposed to be dead, as far as nature intends.  But it's the doctors and her parents that are keeping her from doing what God intended for her to do.  If anybody can answer these questions, please do so! I'm quite distraught over this![/quote]
Its not a delicate issue.
The woman is being murdered by starvation, something the Nazis used to do.
It doesn't really matter if she is brain injured or "done nothing", you don't murder people if they don't meet your standard of living. She needs to be fed thru a tube.
So what!!!!!!
I feed a teenager I babysit thru a tube. Its not a big deal. Many people in the world need feeding tubes.

Should we decide to kill them all.??
Maybe we should just close all the nursing homes and put guns to their heads and finish them all??? If they don't meet our personal standard of living???

I didn't see any great rush to murder Christopher Reeves?

How dare anyone decide when an innocent meets God. He will take her when HE is ready, its not [i]our[/i] choice, its HIS.

If we would let nature "take its course" then the next time someone gets sick , or in a car accident , let them go and don't treat them, so nature can have its way.
How barbaric.

No one has the right to decide when an innocent lives or dies. Only God.

[Q the Ninja]

When a person is not kept alive by extraordinary means, it is illicit (no matter how selfish the other option may be) to euthanize a person by direct act or omission. This is straight from my moral theology class, and when I arrive back in the states I might be able to give you more links to this. And in the case of extraordinary means, you still [i]cannot[/i] will them dead.

And just a personal note on this,

I had a friend who was in a coma, being kept alive by more than Terry (including extraordinary means). He had less of a chance of survival, and was supposed to die within about three days of his stroke.

Today he is in high school and doing well. Doing everything just about as well as he used to. This was in the space of a year that he recovered so well.

I think that Terry has a chance, maybe not so much as you or I would want, possibly, but I think she wants to live herself, and I'll add this to what I've written:

Attorney Barbara Weller's Last Visit With Terri
/fight4terri.blogspot.com ^ | 3/20/05 | Barbara Weller

Posted on 03/21/2005 11:21:25 AM PST by paltz

This narrative is also found on Terri's website www.terrisfight.org

Last Visit Narrative

by Attorney Barbara Weller

When Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube was removed at 1:45 p.m. on March 18, 2005, I was one of the most surprised people on the planet. I had been visiting Terri throughout the morning with her family and her priest. As part of the legal team working throughout the previous days and nights to save Terri from a horrific fate, I was very hopeful. Although the state judicial system had obviously failed Terri by not protecting her life, I knew other forces were still at work. I fully expected the federal courts would step in to reverse this injustice, just as they might for a prisoner unjustly set for execution—although by much more humane means than Terri would be executed. Barring that, I was certain that sometime around noon, the Florida Department of Children and Family Services would come to the Woodside Hospice facility in Pinellas Park and take Terri into protective custody. Or that federal marshals would arrive from Washington D.C, where the Congress was working furiously to try to save Terri, and would stand guard at her door to prevent any medical personnel from entering her room to remove the tube that was providing her nutrition and hydration.

Finally, I was sure if nothing else was working, that at 12:59,just before the hour scheduled for Terri’s gruesome execution to begin, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush would at least issue a 60-day reprieve for the legislative bodies to complete the work they were attempting to do to save Terri’s life and to make sure that no other vulnerable adults could be sentenced to starve to death in America. I had done the legal research weeks before and was fully convinced that Gov. Bush had the power, under our co-equal branches of government, to issue a reprieve in the face of a judicial death sentence intended to lead to the starvation and dehydration of an innocent woman when scores of doctors and neurologists were saying she could be helped.

[Last day with feeding tube]

All morning long, as I was in the room with Terri and her family, we were telling her that help was on the way. Terri was in good spirits that morning. The mood in her room was jovial, particularly around noontime, as we knew Congressional attorneys were on the scene and many were working hard to save Terri’s life. For most of that time, I was visiting and talking with Terri along with Terri’s sister Suzanne Vitadamo, Suzanne’s husband, and Terri’s aunt, who was visiting from New York to help provide support for the family. A female Pinellas Park police office was stationed at the door outside Terri’s room.

Terri was sitting up in her lounge chair, dressed and looking alert and well. Her feeding tube had been plugged in around 11 a.m. and we all felt good that she was still being fed. Suzanne and I were talking, joking, and laughing with Terri, telling her she was going to go to Washington D.C. to testify before Congress, which meant that finally Terri’s husband Michael would be required to fix her wheelchair. After that Suzanne could take Terri to the mall shopping and could wheel her outdoors every day to feel the wind and sunshine on her face, something she has not been able to do for more than five years.

At one point, I noticed Terri’s window blinds were pulled down. I went to the window to raise them so Terri could look at the beautiful garden outside her window and see the sun after several days of rain. As sunlight came into the room, Terri’s eyes widened and she was obviously very pleased. At another point, Suzanne and I told Terri she needed to smell of elderberries in all the food she could because she might not be getting anything for a few days. During that time, Mary Schindler, Terri’s mother, joined us for a bit, and we noticed there were bubbles in Terri’s feeding tube. We joked that we didn’t want her to begin burping, and called the nurses to fix the feeding tube, which they did. Terri’s mother did not come back into the room. This was a very difficult day for Bob and Mary Schindler. I suspect they were less hopeful all along than I was, having lived through Terri’s last two feeding tube removals.

Suzanne and I continued to talk and joke with Terri for probably an hour or more. At one point Suzanne called Terri the bionic woman and I heard Terri laugh out loud heartily for the first time since I have been visiting with her. She laughed so hard that for the first time I noticed the dimples in her cheeks.

The most dramatic event of this visit happened at one point when I was sitting on Terri’s bed next to Suzanne. Terri was sitting in her lounge chair and her aunt was standing at the foot of the chair. I stood up and learned over Terri. I took her arms in both of my hands. I said to her, “Terri if you could only say ‘I want to live’ this whole thing could be over today.” I begged her to try very hard to say, “I want to live.” To my enormous shock and surprise, Terri’s eyes opened wide, she looked me square in the face, and with a look of great concentration, she said, “Ahhhhhhh.” Then, seeming to summon up all the strength she had, she virtually screamed, “Waaaaaaaa.” She yelled so loudly that Michael Vitadamo, Suzanne’s husband, and the female police officer who were then standing together outside Terri’s door, clearly heard her. At that point, Terri had a look of anguish on her face that I had never seen before and she seemed to be struggling hard, but was unable to complete the sentence. She became very frustrated and began to cry. I was horrified that I was obviously causing Terri so much anguish. Suzanne and I began to stroke Terri’s face and hair to comfort her. I told Terri I was very sorry. It had not been my intention to upset her so much. Suzanne and I assured Terri that her efforts were much appreciated and that she did not need to try to say anything more. I promised Terri I would tell the world that she had tried to say, ”I want to live.”

Suzanne and I continued to visit and talk with Terri, along with other family members who came and went in the room, until about 2:00 p.m. when we were all told to leave after Judge Greer denied yet another motion for stay and ordered the removal of the feeding tube to proceed. As we left the room, the female police officer outside the door was valiantly attempting to keep from crying.

Just as Terri’s husband Michael has told the world he must keep an alleged promise to kill Terri, a promise remembered a million dollars and nearly a decade after the fact; I must keep my promise to Terri immediately. Time is running out for her. I went out to the banks of cameras outside the hospice facility and told the story immediately. Now I must also tell the story in writing for the world to hear. It may be the last effective thing I can do to try to keep Terri alive so she can get the testing, therapy, and rehabilitative help she so desperately needs before it is too late.

About four in the afternoon, several hours after the feeding tube was removed, I returned to Terri’s room. By that time she was alone except for a male police officer now standing inside the door. When I entered the room and began to speak to her, Terri started to cry and tried to speak to me immediately. It was one of the most helpless feelings I have ever had. Terri was looking very melancholy at that point and I had the sense she was very upset that we had told her things were going to get better, but instead, they were obviously getting worse. I had previously had the same feeling when my own daughter was a baby who was hospitalized and was crying and looking to me to rescue her from her hospital crib, something I could not do. While I was in the room with Terri for the next half hour or so, several other friends came to visit and I did a few press interviews sitting right next to Terri. I again raised her window shade, which had again been pulled down, so Terri could at least see the garden and the sunshine from her lounge chair. I also turned the radio on in her room before I left so that when she was alone, she would at least have some music for comfort.

Just before I left the room, I leaned over Terri and spoke right into her ear. I told her I was very sorry I had not been able to stop the feeding tube from being taken out and I was very sorry I had to leave her alone. But I reminded her that Jesus would stay right by her side even when no one else was there with her. When I mentioned Jesus’ Name, Terri again laughed out loud. She became very agitated and began loudly trying to speak to me again. As Terri continued to laugh and try to speak, I quietly prayed in her ear, kissed her, placed her in Jesus’ care, and left the room.

Terri is alone now. As I write this last visit narrative, it is five in the morning of March 19. Terri has been without food and water for nearly 17 hours. I’m sure she is beginning at least to become thirsty, if not hungry. And I am left to wonder how many other people care.

[Luthien]

She has done things. She laughs, cries, and reacts to her parents. She hasn't been given a chance to recover, her husband wouldn't allow therapy. Doctors have said that she could be rehabilitated. Its ridiculous.

Also, I'd like to see you survive without food and water. Also, she can swallow. She would drool if she couldnt swallow her spit.

[MissScripture]

[quote]I've also heard people say about this topic that we can't "play God" by making the decision to let her die. But aren't we the ones playing God? She's supposed to be dead, as far as nature intends. But it's the doctors and her parents that are keeping her from doing what God intended for her to do.[/quote]

I highly doubt that if God wanted her to be with Him right away, that she would have been able to be kept alive by any means for any length of time.

[FutureSoror]

The problem is that all she needed was a feeding tube. That's it. No big machines, or even an iv. Tons of people eat through feeding tubes. When I was in 4th grade I went over to my friend's house and her friend from school was over. He had to eat through a feeding tube, and he brought some yogurt to her house to eat for a snack (through the tube). Of course he wasn't brain damaged quite like Terri was, but the point is that a feeding tube is a perfectly normal thing.

Some people eat through tubes. So what? Some people are brain damaged. That doesn't mean they should die! People love them, and they love thier families! Terri wasn't brain damaged beyond the point where she couldn't recognize and interact with her family.

[Guest jdawg83]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 27 2005, 12:00 AM']



[/quote]
[quote]Suffering is an inescapable part of human existence. Do you think people living in the slums of calcutta enjoy living that way? Do you think the family who can barely afford to put food on the table enjoy living that way? Do you think depressed people enjoy living that way? They don't enjoy their situation any more than Terri Shiavo does. But that doesn't mean they can kill themselves to escape their situation. Christ came redeem our suffering, not eliminate it.[/quote]

Those are pretty weak comparisons. People living in poverty can still appreciate and be thankful for the finer things in life. They can still love, feel love, grow, learn, mature, procreate and be happy. Most of all they have hope. Terry couldn't experience any of these things, she was doomed to a life of perpetual oblivion, even to her own existence.

[quote]She has done things. She laughs, cries, and reacts to her parents. She hasn't been given a chance to recover, her husband wouldn't allow therapy. Doctors have said that she could be rehabilitated. Its ridiculous. [/quote]

Actually, doctors have said she had no realistic chance of rehabilitation. Her brain was 90% destroyed. IMO, from the credible sources I have read, her husband Michael did just about everything he could to help her, and the pro-lifers crusade to paint him as a murderer has reflected on their cause very poorly indeed.

[quote]Also, I'd like to see you survive without food and water. Also, she can swallow. She would drool if she couldnt swallow her spit. [/quote]

If she could swallow there would be no need for a feeding tube, and even if she could, it would an unconscious action, much like breathing.

[Crispy]

the point is that no one has the right to act as God (i.e. no one can decide to take a life). she must be allowed to live as long as she will on her own. only God should decide when she will no longer live.