Unicef

[foundsheep]

Is it so wrong to support Unicef if it does help children, in the long run??

I mean, it also helps children in this way;

If a woman has 4 children to take care of, and she's about to have a 5th one, and she's very poor, if Unicef helps her get an abortion, it's helping children isn't it?

If you feel this way then you have touched on an important aspect of the church. The right to life. Gods right to create, in which no one may violate. Murder is murder. And especially the way you put it, abortion as birth control. Disgusting!

[Ellenita]

"participation of UNICEF in a publication of a UN manual advocating the distribution of abortifacient 'post coital contraceptives' to refugee women in emergency situations

I suspect this relates to the situation where many hundreds of women were routinely and deliberately raped during wars in their countries. Evidence of such war crimes as they have been recognised certainly exists in Bosnia and Rwanda. It may be that UNICEF thought it was appropriate to support the distribution of the 'morning after' pill in such circumstances. I'm not sure that I could justify arguing against it under those circumstances.

[littleflower+JMJ]

contraceptives are abortificent

may have a different name, but its the same game. its all abortion. just at different stages.

murder is murder.

+JMJ

[Uncle Gus]

Originally posted by Ellenita

I'm not sure that I could justify arguing against it under those circumstances.

I can. Is it the fault of the child how it was brought into being? Does he/she deserve to be killed for the fault of his/her parents?

And to the mother I say this; bad things happen. Deal with it. You (like all sinners) deserve far, far worse. Harsh but true.

Edited November 3, 2003 by Uncle Gus

[foundsheep]

I suspect this relates to the situation where many hundreds of women were routinely and deliberately raped during wars in their countries. Evidence of such war crimes as they have been recognised certainly exists in Bosnia and Rwanda. It may be that UNICEF thought it was appropriate to support the distribution of the 'morning after' pill in such circumstances. I'm not sure that I could justify arguing against it under those circumstances.

Could you look at in a way of being a martyr for christ. raising a child through those circumstances?

[Anna]

Ellenita, that quote you keep citing isn't the article saying that the Holy Father has supported Unicef, it's quoting Klee as claiming it. See the quotation marks around that sentence you emboldened? They are quoting Klee.

Klee hasn't represented the Catholic non-government organizations since 1994, and the Vatican began withholding support from Unicef in 1996.

The Vatican still does not support Unicef.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited November 3, 2003 by Anna

[jasJis]

I can.

My 14 year old daughter, who is rather bright, was talking about becoming pregnant by rape. Note that we have always told her we are against abortion, against pre-maritial sex, but if she were to get pregnant, it would be handled as a family, that as a family, we could not escape all the consequences of an unplannned pregnancy.

She said to us that if she were to become pregnant from rape, that knowing how unlikely it is for a person to concieve in that situation, the baby would be 1 part her, 1 part the rapist, and 1 part God. In her opinion, the 2 parts of her and God far outweigh the negativity of the rapist. The rape was an act that was finished, the baby and her being a mother is a continued grace of God.

I had never looked at it that way before. I used to not be so anti-abortion, until my daughters got older and I had to consider it in a real sense. Any child of my daughters, wife, sisters, cousins, etc., is flesh of my flesh too. I cannot condone the killing of any member of my family for selfish convenience.

I think God probably has the same attitude about His children too.

Edited November 3, 2003 by jasJis

[Spiritual_Arsonist]

This is the motto of the UN and its organizations:

Kill, slash, burn, and destroy.

[Ellenita]

Anna, the last quote I posted was given as the reason the Vatican cited for withdrawing support!

I take your point about Klee. I don't who he is so I really can't comment on how valid he is in speaking on behalf of the church though presumably he did have the churches blessing at the time he held the position as President of International Catholic Organisations.

This is the motto of the UN and its organisations. Kill, slash, burn and destroy

Absolutely untrue. I may not always agree with the UN and its related organisations (usually because I think they don't listen to evidence which is being presented to them soon enough, such as in the case of Afganistan and Iraq) however they are willing to get into situations that are incredibly difficult and messy and make a positive difference.

Could you look at it as being a martyr for Christ raising a child through those circumstances?

My goodness, that's a really hard question. I don't know if I could stand in front of a woman who has been through multiple rapes by just being on the wrong side and in the wrong place in a war, asking for the 'morning after pill' in case she is pregnant as a result and say that to her.

[littleflower+JMJ]

My goodness, that's a really hard question. I don't know if I could stand in front of a woman who has been through multiple rapes by just being on the wrong side and in the wrong place in a war, asking for the 'morning after pill' in case she is pregnant as a result and say that to her.

i wouldn't be able to stand to know that i helped kill her unborn child. a precious life.

[Paladin D]

Abortion is murder.

[Uncle Gus]

Okay, so let's look at this rape situation. Sure, the pregnancy was unwanted, the father is a rapist etc. etc. But if there was _any_ person that you were justified in killing for it, it'd be the rapist himself. But the truth is, you're not jusitified in killing him, so how can you be justified in killing the child?

[foundsheep]

I must add that there is still a double standard. When a person murders a pregnant women they consider that a double murder. Yet abortion is ok. Bunk!

[Ellenita]

Please understand I'm not an apologist for abortion.

I've always hoped and prayed that I would never find myself in a position where I would even have to consider it as a possibility in my life, but when I first started coming to Phatmass, I did hold to the position that abortion was up to the individual woman to decide since I was influenced by a feminist understanding of it. However, it has occurred to me over the past few weeks when I've been reading your posts that I've never really thought about the process that's involved and it is causing me to re think what I believe. This is a huge shift for me, so you are having an impact.

However, there is a big difference between abortion and contraception. I have not ever believed that abortion could be justified as a form of contraception.

if there was any person that you were justified in killing for it, it'd be the rapist himself. But the truth is you're not justified in killing him, so how can you be justified in killing the child?

Unfair Uncle Gus! How can I possibly argue against your logic, especially since I do not believe in the death penalty?

I may have to think about this.......