Who gets to decide?

[Paphnutius]

Romans 12: 13-21

"Do not be wise in your own estimation."

James 19-25

"A man who listens to God's word but does not put it into practice is like a man who looks into a mirror at the face he was born with: he looks at himself, then goes off and promtply forgets what he looked like. There is, on the other hand, the man who peers into freedom's ideal law and abides by it. He is no forgetful listener, but one who accries out the law in practice. Bles will the man be in whatever he does."

I think that this discussion overlaps some with the virtue of humility.

The first step as mentioned earlier is to submit one's conscience to being formed by the teachings of the Church and by the Word of God. From there it depends if the person truly listens and applies it. As the scripture says some will listen and look at themselves and then forget what they saw. Others will practice it. If a person truly is on the way to having a rightly formed conscience I belive that one will grow in the virtue of humility. We must remember that part of having a rightly formed conscience is being able to distinguish between good acts and bad acts, good thought and bad thoughts, truth and non-truth (in the moral sense).

I think that a certain point during this development one will become aware that one is indeed forming a conscience oriented towards God. Granted, we can be self decieved and rationalize what we do, but if they have truly listened, internalized, and put into practice the teachings and Word, one comes to a truer knowledge of self. This is humility: knowing oneself truly with the Grace of God. Not walking around with one's head down all the time, but knowing where one's true strenghts and true weaknesses are. One knows that one is intellegent/a little slower learner, good at sports/not that athletic, even one knows what tempations one struggles with if one has fostered humility. A person who is humble knows their own weaknesses and where they need to continue how to grow.

This ties in with knowing if one has a rightly formed conscience thusly: A rightly formed conscience will lead to the virtue of humility (truly knowing oneself self), when one is humble one will recongize where one still needs to grow. This does not mean that the person says, "I have a rightly formed consicne now." But rather, "I still need to work in these areas of struggle and temptation." A rightly formed conscience will be able to better assess how it is progressing towards that love and practice of God's will. It will not look back and say, "I have come this far that is enough," but, "I still have this far to go." It is not a matter of judging oneself in terms of salvation, but rather coming to a truer knowledge of self in the moral realm and recongizing areas of growth or setback.

The person cannot judge himself alone, but rather needs the aid and assistance of God and His people. The conscinece, no matter how far down the right path, always needs that aid and support of fellow Christians to continue to grow. So I suppose my answer is this: One may assess that one is headed down the correct path, but a rightly formed conscience will always be mindful of how far it has yet to go. As MichaelFilo said, "We cannot reach perfection without God." The rightly formed conscience will never be complacent with where it is in moral terms but continue to seek ways to grow and improve. Knowing and admiting that one is on the way to "perfecting" one's conscience is not wrong so long as one always keeps in mind they can never achieve it by himself and that they always have a long ways to go. If one says that they have a rightly formed conscience but it is apparent that they do not, there is a philosophical principle that can apply here: A cause is known through its effects. If a person is blatantly sinning and shows no signs of contrition or even progress in working on that, I would say they are self decieved if they imagine they are devout. That is where fellow Christians come in.

That being said, however, the best "judge" of a rightly formed conscience is one that is spiritually mature (e.g.: A spiritual director).

[CarpeDiem88]

[quote]That being said, however, the best "judge" of a rightly formed conscience is one that is spiritually mature (e.g.: A spiritual director). [/quote]

or [b]God[/b]...

[Guest JeffCR07]

It seems to me that the rightly formed conscience is more than simple intellectual conscent to the teachings of the Church, but rather, the rightly formed conscience is the one that concurrs with the teachings of the Church.

One can observe a rightly formed conscience in action (even one's own) when the free exercise of that conscience arrives at the same conclusion as does the Church on a given issue.

Posited negatively, one can observe the unformed conscience in action (even one's own) when the free exercise of that conscience arrives at a conclusion that is in opposition to the teaching of the Church on a given issue.

Now, it also must be noted that no one has a [i]perfectly[/i] formed conscience - that is to say, a conscience which is rightly formed in all matters. All of our consciences are rightly formed in some places and unformed in others.


It has been questioned as to whether or not the above definition of the rightly formed conscience is an instance of circular logic, and I reply in the negative.

We must understand that the rightly exercised conscience is nothing more than an individual faculty for perceiving truth. The Holy Mother Church is the Mystical Body of Christ, who is Truth, and she is guided by the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of Truth. Recalling that the role of the properly formed conscience is the recognition of Truth, we see that one could also state that the role of the properly formed conscience is the recognition of the Church.

In this manner, we see that no "begging the question" exists, because we are merely speaking of the faculty of perception and the thing perceived.

- Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Jaime]

[quote]I think that this discussion overlaps some with the virtue of humility[/quote]

I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. If the saints show us anything, it is that the closer they come to setting the example, the less worthy they feel about being that example. If anyone can be used to demonstrate a properly formed conscience, it would be the saints.

I think that attaining a properly or rightly formed conscience is a journey that continues till death. I think it is the journey that is important and not the final goal.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='CarpeDiem88' date='Mar 28 2005, 11:44 AM']
or [b]God[/b]... [/quote]
Lol, yeah I just thought that went without saying I suppose...

It seems like we agree that a rightly formed conscience includes recongizing and knowing truth. So it would appear that the more rightly formed conscience on has the more one would recongize how unformed one's conscience is. Since we all fall far short of the goal that is. A rightly formed conscience would almost never say, "I am this close," bit would seem always to say, "I am still this far."

[CarpeDiem88]

[b]Amen[/b] and the picture has been seen.

[james]

I hope that humility is not being confused with doubt in this discussion.

While it is true that the saints generally exercised great humility, I do not believe that they doubted the formation of their consciences.

Having well formed consciences, the Saints had a clear perception of their unworthiness due to sin, not due to any perceived lack of formation of their consciences.

A conscience can be said to be properly formed in proportion to it's ability to perceive truth. A conscience that perceives truth does not doubt.

Humility is a virtue. Doubt is not a virtue.

Edited March 28, 2005 by james

[Paphnutius]

Who was talking about doubt?

[james]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 28 2005, 12:47 PM'] Who was talking about doubt? [/quote]

The question was asked, "Can a person assess for himself/herself that (s)he truly has a rightly formed conscience? "A number of people have expressed their opinion by answering this question in the negative.

The consequence of that supposition is that one must always doubt the formation of their conscience because they are unable to assess whether their conscience is properly formed.

This leads to a number of problems. If one doubts the formation of their conscience they, in turn, doubt their ability to perceive truth. If a person cannot perceive truth then they cannot truly believe anything regardless of whether the church teaches it or not, for if one cannot perceive truth, how can they perceive that the church is true?

Seeing this supposition taken to it's logical end, one can see that it results in total doubt. So to answer your question, no one mentioned doubt specifically, but it was implied.

Edited March 28, 2005 by james

[Paphnutius]

Oh ok...

It seems like Jeff, hot stuff, and I expressed in the positive. One can assess one's rightly formed conscience so long as it is just that, rightly formed. What one realizes, then, is not how rightly one is formed, but what one is lacking to being rightly formed. Just how unformed one is. If it is about percieving truth, then one recongizes the truth of their own sinfulness, failings, etc... This does not mean they doubt they have a rightly formed consicnece, it is just what one reveals. At the same time however, on recongizes that he is coming closer to Christ, but always keep before him just how far he is from Christ. That is truth. The perception of the truth of our distance from God leads to humility, knowing oneself truly. This also is a perception of the truth of God's love for the individual because of who the individual is, and the is expressed in salvation. I still dont see how Jeff or hot stuff was implying any doubt.