What Does It Mean To Be "saved"?

[hecklingsoul]

...what I might see as reason another person might not, and they may well have reached their reason through just as much intellectual understanding as I have mine. Isn't that where the faith bit comes in?

I don't think so. When Jesus sent out His 12 apostles to feed his sheep, he taught them the true interpretation. They have been preserving that truth ever since through apostolic succession in the Catholic church. We don't have to guess at the truth, Jesus gave us a teaching authority to teach it and maintain it. And never shall the gates of hell prevail against it.

[ICTHUS]

It must be a specific type of grape wine, and unleavened bread of flour and water. 

The form is the formula of prayers recited to consecrate.

And this must be done by a duly ordained priest.

Regarding improper matter -

1. What's the type of wine

2. What about the Eastern Catholic Churches, who use leavened bread and/or whole loaves of bread for the Sacred Host?

[Freaky Chik]

on that whole intellect thing...

1 Corinthians 1

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;

the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[3]

20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[4]

1 Corinthians 2

1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[5] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:

"No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no mind has conceived

what God has prepared for those who love him"[6] -- 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.

11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[7] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16"For who has known the mind of the Lord

that he may instruct him?"[8] But we have the mind of Christ.

[Norseman82]

What is justification?  Do you have a definition?

CATECHISM:

1987: The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism: But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. 1988: Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself: [God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37 1989: The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man." 1990: Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals. 1991: Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us. 1992: Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 1993: Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent: When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42 1994: Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy. 1995: The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being: Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45 2018: Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high. 2019: Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man. 2020: Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

One other thing. From my dialoguing with protestants that I deal with, most of them look upon being saved as the moment they first accepted Christ, and that's it; Catholics realize that it is a lifelong process. Protestants are concerned about "are you saved now" or "when were you saved" whereas we Catholics are worried about the state of our soul at the moment of death.

[hyperdulia again]

Salvation is not a thing that comes from altar calls and the “Sinner’s Prayer”. It comes from dying and rising with Christ in baptism, it comes from receiving the Holy Sprit at Confirmation, it comes from eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our Lord, it comes from being dead to the world and dead to sin, but alive to Christ. Salvation is not an act, a fixed point in time, it is the process of growing more like Christ.

Protestants tend to speak of salvation as if it is something that happened yesterday, or something that will happen tomorrow, this is erroneous, salvation is happening right now in the Catholic view of things it is a process that ends only when life ends and we are enfolded in the arms of our waiting Lord in Heaven.

[Joolye]

One other thing.  From my dialoguing with protestants that I deal with, most of them look upon being saved as the moment they first accepted Christ, and that's it; Catholics realize that it is a lifelong process.  Protestants are concerned about "are you saved now" or "when were you saved" whereas we Catholics are worried about the state of our soul at the moment of death.

From what you've said, it seems like you believe that all protestants believe in Once Saved Always Saved.

I agree with your perspective (except what you said about what Protestants are concerned about). I agree that it is your spiritual state when you die that matters, and it is about growing into closer relationship with God.

Now, this whole post is a discussion about salvation and knowing whether people are saved. I don't think it is for us to say that a person is saved because.... or that a person is not saved because..... Only God knows the state of a person's heart and only he knows where they will be going when they die. So why do we even try to figure that out for ourselves?

Now, off the topic: This Purgatory, is that like the Refiner's fire?

[Anna]

*hand goes to head, feeling whoosey*

I agree with everything Joolye just said!

And yes, purgatory is like the refiner's fire.

The souls detained in purgatory have the blessed assurance of knowing that they are going to heaven. They've been judged worthy, just need to put on the proper attire for the great wedding feast! So, it is not entirely unpleasant, but the longing is very great...being that close to heaven...These souls are burning with desire to be united with the Lord.