What Does It Mean To Be "saved"?

[Katholikos]

Monica wrote about St. Maximillian Kolbe on Open Mic:

But, oh well, I mean even Catholics have to get SOMETHING right somewhere along the way. Here is one exception. Maybe he was even saved, although he was a Catholic and devoted to Mary.

Do you mean that a person who is (1) Catholic, and/or (2) devoted to Mary, can't be saved? Or can only be saved in certain instances? What do you mean by "saved"? Under what circumstances do you think a Catholic can be saved (if you do)?

What about Martin Luther, who was "devoted to Mary" to his dying breath. You don't think Luther, the hero of the Deformation, was "saved"? What do you think happened to him?

(Personally, I believe he's in Purgatory until the end of time )

JMJ Jay (Katholikos)

[Ellenita]

Katholikos, are you directing these questions to Monica?

A huge number of protestant denominations do not believe in infant baptism or confirmation and therefore would not consider anyone who had experienced this as an expression of their faith as being saved. I think it's a very commonly held belief among many protestants that catholics 'are not christians' and will not be 'saved' until they have come to accept protestant beliefs!

[Anna]

I am also curious about something: does "saved" mean the same thing as "justified"?

If not, what's the difference?

In the Purgatory thread, Monica seemed to think that the souls in purgatory somehow aren't saved. Yet, they are the only souls who can definitely say, without a doubt, "I am going to spend eternity in heaven."

Even someone who claims to be saved cannot say that for certain.

Cuz until we reach purgatory, we are still working out our salvation in fear and trembling!

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

THe protestant Church is about 500 years old?

THe Catholic Church is 2000 years old.

So if we are not christians, the protestants are not either.

THe truth religion did not wait around 1500 years to be discovered by a bunch of

disgruntled old men.

THou are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my Church!!

And he did. :)

[littleflower+JMJ]

i totally despise that whole "saved" business.

God does the saving. not us.

its like we're trying to play the CEO part when we're only the UPS guy.

who are we to make such claims?

thats God's department.

untill we're past those pearly white gates, then we will know if we are truly "saved"

and not a second before.

-_-

+JMJ

[Ellenita]

There is no concept of puratory in protestant theology. You are either 'saved', and therefore going directly to heaven when you die or you are 'not saved' and heading for the other place. It's a concept I have been battling with in terms of trying to understand it and it's quite difficult to accept if you are steeped in protestantism.

Anna, I'm not sure what you mean by justified. Being saved is about accepting that Jesus died for our sins and personally asking Him into our lives isn't it? No one is justified in their salvation - its through the grace of God.

cmotherofpirl, you know that I don't hold to the belief that Catholics are not Christians don't you?! I'm actively seeking the truth and being challenged on alot of things I've been taught in the past as a result.

[hecklingsoul]

You are either 'saved', and therefore going directly to heaven when you die or you are 'not saved' and heading for the other place.

Us too. The Catholic Church doesn't see Purgatory as a second chance. Its a cleansing process before you get to heaven. You can be saved but if you are anything less then pure then you need to be made so before entering heaven. Because nothing unpure can enter heaven. So if you find yourself in purgatory, rest assured that you will be going to heaven.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Jesus is the only one who judges who will and will not be saved. I don't like it when Protestants ask "have you been saved?" They have the misconception that just believing in Christ means you will attain salvation. A belief that is Biblically false:

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Matthew 7:21

[Anna]

Being saved is about accepting that Jesus died for our sins and personally asking Him into our lives isn't it?

Catholics do accept that Jesus died on the Cross for our sins.

We also accept that He gives us His Body and Blood to eat. How's that for personally inviting Him into our lives?

"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me, and I in him." "Amen, amen, I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have eternal life."

We accept the Truth, the WHOLE Truth, and Nothing But the Truth.

How does one ask Jesus personally into their lives, but refuse to eat His Body and drink His Blood, as He commanded? What sort of acceptance is that?

Where in Scripture are we instructed to "ask Jesus into our lives" in order to be saved? Is this a doctrine made up by men?

No one is justified in their salvation - its through the grace of God.

What is justification? Do you have a definition?

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father is in heaven.

That's in the context of false prophets isn't it? Mathew 7:15 - 23. And how can we possibly know for certain who has 'got it right' since there is so much division and difference between what the church (in the widest sense of the word) believes? So it is by faith that we have to trust that we are on the right track.

How does one ask Jesus personally into their lives, but refuse to eat his Body and drink his Blood as He commanded. What sort of acceptance is that?

I thought all protestants took communion as part of their act of worship.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

To call Jesus Lord, you are accepting Him as the Christ. These false prophets do things in Jesus' name but are not saved.

Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.'

Matthew 7:23

[hecklingsoul]

I thought all protestants took communion as part of their act of worship.

Can anything be said about all protestants. Their beliefs differ so much between them, it would be too much of a generalization to say they all believe anything. ;)

[Anna]

That's in the context of false prophets isn't it? Mathew 7:15 - 23.  And how can we possibly know for certain who has 'got it right' since there is so much division and difference between what the church (in the widest sense of the word) believes? So it is by faith that we have to trust that we are on the right track.

No, we can't just blindly go by faith to figure out which of the more than 33,000 denominations calling themselves "Christians" have it right.

God gave us a brain, and he expects us to use it.

We must use faith, combined with reason.

Luther encouraged folks to go by "Faith alone," cuz if they threw reason out the window, he could get them to follow his irrational and unbiblical doctrines...

By using reason, we would ask ourselves, "Well, what did the Apostles believe?" "What did they teach?" St. John the Evangelist taught St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was the third bishop of Antioch. He's one of the earliest Christian writers. He's also the first to call the Church "Catholic." Instead of relying on your gut, use your head. Study history....beyond the 1500's!

I thought all protestants took communion as part of their act of worship.

Few denominations believe that their communion is the Body and Blood of Jesus, and rightfully so, for it isn't. They don't have proper form, proper matter, nor do they have the essential: a duly ordained priest to consecrate!

Pax Christi. <><

[Ellenita]

God gave us a brain and he expects us to use it. We must use faith combined with reason

I absolutely agree with you Anna! However what I might see as reason another person might not, and they may well have reached their reason through just as much intellectual understanding as I have mine. Isn't that where the faith bit comes in? There have been people of astounding intellect in different denominations haven't there, convinced that their reason is the right one!

Few denominations believe that their communion is the Body and Blood of Jesus.....They don't have proper form, proper matter, nor do they have the essential; a duly ordained priest to consecrate.

What do you mean by proper form and proper manner? I have not, until I came to Phatmass and recently begun to consider the apostolic ordination of priests ever questioned that my form of communion in the anglican church was anything less that the proper' form of communion.

[Anna]

I'm not necessarily referring to the Anglican Church, but some as of late who have come upon this phorum have spoken of celebrating the Lord's supper with grape juice and crackers, coke and pizza, juice and french toast....that is not proper matter. It must be a specific type of grape wine, and unleavened bread of flour and water.

The form is the formula of prayers recited to consecrate.

And this must be done by a duly ordained priest.

Regarding your other remarks about reason, yes, I agree, there are plenty of intelligent people in various denominations. But it may not be their intelligence that keeps them in that denomination. It may be that they are comfortable in a place that encourages the lifestyle they want to live....a church that ok's divorce and remarriage, contraception, sterilization, homosexual acts, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah....There are many reasons a person chooses a church, and not all the reasons are based on Faith and Reason.

Pax Christi. <><