If they are going to have sex......

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Mar 22 2005, 03:37 PM'] The flip-side is that by not giving them any clean needles at all, and someone becoming seriously injured from withdrawal which you could have prevented, means that this is not clear-cut. [/quote]
How dare they promote the prevention of AIDS.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 10:38 PM'] How dare they promote the prevention of AIDS. [/quote]
Whilst I see your point, that's not really the issue I had in mind. The thing that annoyed me was the sanctimonius "thou shan't do this.." when the person in question clearly has no clue.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 22 2005, 10:26 PM'] The proposition that you can give someone the means to commit moral evil (contraception, needles, bombs) to prevent some negative consequence (pregnancy, AIDS, nuclear war) is illogical stupidity. [/quote]
Ok, how about this for an example.

You see a beggar on the street, clearly not looking his best. Knowing that, statistically, 80% of money from people going to beggars on the street goes on drugs, do you give him money or not?

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='RandomProddy' date='Mar 22 2005, 03:43 PM'] Ok, how about this for an example.

You see a beggar on the street, clearly not looking his best. Knowing that, statistically, 80% of money from people going to beggars on the street goes on drugs, do you give him money or not? [/quote]
I would call the cops.

[aloha918]

i dont think that a lot of you got what i was saying in this poll

my line of thinking was that if they had sex they might get pregnant which could lead to abortion, single motherhood...etc.

obviously i would tell them not to have sex ingeneral.....but what i was saying in the poll was that they had already made up their mind to have sex......and you wouldnt be able to change their mind........

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]You think that sex without the intent to create life is morally evil. I dont. To me saying a condom is like an explosive device is absolutely absurd. But thats where we differ.[/quote]

Failure to transmit human life is not the primary reason why fornication is wrong, but rather, because fornication is an attack on the dignity of the human person; it is a selfish act which uses another person to gratify your base sexual desires. A human being is a person to be loved, not used. If you really want to give yourself to someone totally, you will take their hand in marriage, and show that you want them totally. Otherwise, you are simply using them.

[quote]The flip-side is that by not giving them any clean needles at all, and someone becoming seriously injured from withdrawal which you could have prevented, means that this is not clear-cut.[/quote]

If you play with fire, you're going to be burned. You can't stop someone from committing stupid acts, and bearing with the consequences. All you can do is encourage them not to committ the stupid act in the first place. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[quote]Linking the examples in the way you did makes even less sense when it's pointed out that one example involves someone enslaved to a substance and the other is not anything of the sort.[/quote]

Anyone who committs sin is a slave to sin. It matters not what the sin is.

[quote]How dare they promote the prevention of AIDS. [/quote]

Spare us your empty rhetoric. I'm all for the prevention of AIDS. Stop using women like pieces of meat, and you'll avoid AIDS. It's really simple.

[quote]You see a beggar on the street, clearly not looking his best. Knowing that, statistically, 80% of money from people going to beggars on the street goes on drugs, do you give him money or not? [/quote]

This is a red herring, because money is not inherently ordered to the purchase of drugs. Contraception IS inherently ordered to unchastity. But, it's funny you mention this, because I met a homeless man the other day, and brought him to McDonalds to get a meal, and he insisted I give him 5 bucks for later. I said I would buy him another meal to take with him, but I wouldn't give him any money. I asked if he wanted anything from the store, and he asked for cigarettes and a scratch ticket. My fears were confirmed, and I correctly declined to give him any cash.

Someone described this matter aptly in reference to Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. He told her "Go and sin no more", not "Go and sin no more, but if you insist, stop by Walgreens pharmacy on the way".

Edited March 22, 2005 by Eremite

[Guest Eremite]

Also, when you're handing out condoms, you might want to inform the recipients of the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), which condoms are powerless to defend against.

[Brother Adam]

"Failure to transmit human life is not the primary reason why fornication is wrong, but rather, because fornication is an attack on the dignity of the human person; it is a selfish act which uses another person to gratify your base sexual desires. A human being is a person to be loved, not used. If you really want to give yourself to someone totally, you will take their hand in marriage, and show that you want them totally. Otherwise, you are simply using them."


Thank you. I was about to post that.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 04:38 PM'] How dare they promote the prevention of AIDS. [/quote]
wow, how about prevent AIDS by encouraging healthy sexual habits (ie none before marriage) and abstaining from drugs?

but shucks, that's no fun.

[Melchisedec]

[quote]Failure to transmit human life is not the primary reason why fornication is wrong, but rather, because fornication is an attack on the dignity of the human person; it is a selfish act which uses another person to gratify your base sexual desires. A human being is a person to be loved, not used. If you really want to give yourself to someone totally, you will take their hand in marriage, and show that you want them totally. Otherwise, you are simply using them.
[/quote]

Apparently your view on sex is twisted and selfish not mine. You imply that I want sex simply for myself and use my wife as a piece of meat. I am married to my highschool sweetheart, love of my life, for 10 years this year. We are not in the financial situation to have kids, even though we want them. But we should not feel that we are evil or feel ashamed to want to make love together! For the pleasure of us both. We both enjoy sex together. Hard to believe isnt it. It is not for the purpose for me or just her to get pleasure while the other is simply just meat as you put it. Its part of how we express our love for each other and if you cannot understand that because the thought of sex makes you squemish than thats not my problem.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:06 PM']
Apparently your view on sex is twisted and selfish not mine. You imply that I want sex simply for myself and use my wife as a piece of meat. I am married to my highschool sweetheart, love of my life, for 10 years this year. We are not in the financial situation to have kids, even though we want them. But we should not feel that we are evil or feel ashamed to want to make love together! For the pleasure of us both. We both enjoy sex together. Hard to believe isnt it. It is not for the purpose for me or just her to get pleasure while the other is simply just meat as you put it. Its part of how we express our love for each other and if you cannot understand that because the thought of sex makes you squemish than thats not my problem. [/quote]
I was not referring to married relations, but FORNICATION, which is carnal relations between two unmarried persons.

As for married persons who cannot afford children, there are natural periods of infertility to assist in that problem. But that's a whole other topic altogether (see the NFP forum).

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:03 PM'] wow, how about prevent AIDS by encouraging healthy sexual habits (ie none before marriage) and abstaining from drugs?

but shucks, that's no fun. [/quote]
To expect the world to be abstinent is simply a unrealistic. There will be teens who do experiment with sex. No reason why they shouldn't have some sort of protection if they make that choice.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 22 2005, 04:59 PM'] Also, when you're handing out condoms, you might want to inform the recipients of the Human Papilloma Virus (HPV), which condoms are powerless to defend against. [/quote]
Condoms are a form of protection. But there not 100% and many people know this. Its no different than a bulletproof vest. More of a due diligence.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 22 2005, 11:49 PM'] This is a red herring, because money is not inherently ordered to the purchase of drugs. Contraception IS inherently ordered to unchastity. But, it's funny you mention this.. [/quote]
Ok, we aren't arguing the same thing. Comtraception may be inherently immoral but drugs are not, so blanket statements on needles are not necessarily helpful but I know what you mean.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 22 2005, 05:09 PM'] To expect the world to be abstinent is simply a unrealistic. There will be teens who do experiment with sex. No reason why they shouldn't have some sort of protection if they make that choice. [/quote]
Simply because somone or some people chooses to make a choice that is wrong does not make that choice okay. I do not understand why people think because there are those that do something, it makes it okay. People complain that abstienence only doesn't work. That is because when they are told abstinence only they turn around and look at the media and the world. They are bombarded with immoral images and propoganda. True, how can we expect people to listen when the world is so counter moral? No one said that living the moral life was going to be easy, but because it is difficult does not mean that we are to lower the standard to accomodate those that simply do not want to try the jump.

[quote]"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable." - ILN, 10/23/09 [/quote]