Movie About Martin Luther....

[Monica]

No they weren't.

The early protestants left Christ to follow their sins.

It was the civil governments that did the persecution... there were also thousands of Catholics killed.

It's time you start listening to both sides, get the facts, and make an educated choice.

-ironmonk

I'm so used to only hearing one side (the Protestant side) that I don't know how to listen. Sorry.

But Protestants WERE persecuted, and they DID die for refusing to give up their faith.

[littleflower+JMJ]

I'm so used to only hearing one side (the Protestant side) that I don't know how to listen. Sorry.

But Protestants WERE persecuted, and they DID die for refusing to give up their faith.

dont forget about st. max monica!

and there are plenty plenty more saints where that came from! :D

some incorruptable!

:D

[Sammy Blaze]

True protestants were persecuted and killed throughout history, as well as many Catholics, and as well as jews.... If you put the perspective on todays society... which Christian faith is attacked and persecuted the most....and mostly persecuted by other CHRISTIAN denominations! If you need inspiration, talk to a Catholic who has to defend their faith on a daily basis (I go to a Baptist affiliated University)

On another note..... I'll say, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the Catholic church is not perfect, well maybe the Church but let's just say man is not perfect. As humans we screw up.... Take for instance the days of Moses, and the sinful day they created the Golden calf... From that day on, GOD"S CHOSEN PEOPLE wandered in the desert for years to PURGE themselves and become worthy again....I can surely say that anything that has happened to darken the image of GOD"S CHURCH has been dealt with in GOD"S CHURCH, and the Church has purged itself and remained as one body. Just like the pedafile priest problem..."out of 12 original apostles, 1 (Judas) was corrupted....that's 8% B)

Now out of the thousands of God's called apostles to priesthood, I believe that's a total of 2% of all Catholic priests worldwide... Give us another 2000 years and It'll be 0%

anyways I kinda got off topic but you'll eventually learn I can talk forever.. anyways I'm out S.

[Paladin D]

Monica, if you want to get picky on persecutions.

After the Reformation, Catholics in England were treated very harshly. Catholicism was illegal.

Many were tortured and killed. Irish Catholics also suffered because of English Protestants.

[Aloysius]

are you inspired by a man who breaks away from the Catholic Church causing centuries of war and chaos, and a permanent disunity among Christians? that doesn't seem like something that should inspire any follower of Christ.

i posted that in Open Mic, just wanted to reiterate it

the deformation was a slap in the face of Jesus Christ who prayed that all Christians may be ONE. the deformation was basically, sorry Jesus, we know how much u wanted unity, but if we stop listening to the authority of the Chair of St. Peter we can sin all we want and still be saved.

i really don't think Christ was rooting for them. but anyway, u do realize that if this deformation had never happened, there wouldn't have been so much violence in Europe for the next hundreds of years, right? i mean, these were wars between Catholic and Protestant. u kan still see the damage cause by the deformers in places like Ireland.

it is very Christ-like to call them wolves in sheep's clothing.

[Katholikos]

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

In 1522 (1534?), Martin Luther translated the Bible into German. He wanted to get rid of Maccabees because it supports the doctrine of Purgatory, which conflicted with his new doctrine of Sola Fide. The Hebrew Canon does not contain Tobit, Judith, Baruch, I and II Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus (also known as Sirach) and parts of Esther and Daniel, because they existed only in Greek. All but Wisdom and II Maccabees were originally written in Hb, but the Hb text had been lost. So Luther got rid of Maccabees by declaring that none of the Greek writings were scripture. And he had the action taken by the Palestinian rabbis c. 100 A.D. as justification.

Luther put these seven books and parts of Esther and Daniel from the Old Testament at the back of his German Bible, separated from the "real" scriptures, and left the pages unnumbered to show his disdain for them. He afforded the same treatment to Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation, declaring that they, too, were not scripture.

Luther's followers tolerated his desecration of the OT. But not the NT. Philip Melanchthon -- Luther's co-conspirator and the author of the Augsburg Confession -- put the NT writings back where they belonged.

Luther wrote commentaries for his German translation that reveal as much about the man as his opinions.

Samples:

"I therefore refuse him [James] a place among the writers of the true canon of my Bible." Luther. 1522 German Translation, Preface to James.

"Hence, although I value the book, yet it is not essential to reckon it among the canonical books that lay the foundation of faith." Luther, 1522 German Translation, Preface to Jude.

So, seven books and parts of Esther and Daniel from the OT and four of the NT were exiled to the back of Luther's German Bible, unnumbered, and labeled 'okay to read but not scripture' by Luther. The original King James Version also put the so-called "apocrypha" at the back, in a separate section reserved for writings that were edifying, but were not scripture. Subsequent printings omitted these writings altogether. Philip Melanchthon had previously rescued Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, so they were in their rightful place.

For more of Martin Luther's views on the Bible,

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ325.HTM

I hope this wasn't too tedious for you to read. Do any of you priest-seminarian-scholars have any comments or corrections? I'm just an amateur wannabe history buff. All corrections gratefully received.

Questions, anyone? I'll do my best to answer them.

JMJ Jay (Katholikos)

[littleflower+JMJ]

thanks likos so very very much!!

[Katholikos]

Yes please Katholikos! You do realise that it's nearly 3.30 am here and I can't go to bed until I've heard the rest!!!  :D

Sorry Ellenita and Li'l Flower, but phatmass wouldn't let me post again -- kept telling me "web site not responding"! Finally got through. Hope I didn't keep you up too late!

JMJ Jay (Katholikos)

[littleflower+JMJ]

Sorry Ellenita and Li'l Flower, but phatmass wouldn't let me post again -- kept telling me "web site not responding"! Finally got through. Hope I didn't keep you up too late!

JMJ Jay (Katholikos)

no prob likos!! hehe i was havign problems with phatmass too! (ask dave!)

LOL thank you for posting the secodn part!

that was too much suspense hangign there! lol at least you didni't leave us in mid-sentence!

that was a long intermission! lol

your the best likos! you really really are!!

:D

+JMJ

[Mary's Knight, La]

pay attention and observe the rhetoric used by our newest closed mind:

1 the catholic church is a liar

2. if the catholic church teaches that luther is the real liar then they are not very christian and thusly prove they are straying

It's hilarious how "self-defending" arguements can be constructed by using a flase premise. Meanwhile if you use a true premise then the facts rather than the arguements themselves defend the arguement

now getting into the deal about the septuagint, they jews removed those books after the christians started using them (talked to my priest about it)

[Katholikos]

what you're saying about him is not very christian. I don't think Jesus would approve.

but the, again, if it's what you believe....

Monica, I believe it because it's T-r-u-e with a capital T!

Please, Monica, I can prove everything I wrote from Luther's own writings -- his very own words. Go to that website I provided to read what he wrote about Jews. Don't worry, it's not a Catholic website. Several websites on the Net have the document "On the Jews and Their Lies" by Martin Luther posted. Look it up yourself by searching under the document name.

I understand the feeling you must have, to find out that you have been lied to for a lifetime by people you trusted -- people who knew, or should have known, the truth. I had the same experience. I'm still angry about it. You're beginning the unlearning process -- replacing lies with truth. The people who lied to you aren't evil -- just misinformed and unwilling to believe the facts of history. They believe a distorted version of history.

If I document every statement I made, will you read it? Right from Luther's own writings?

Of course, Luther was long dead when the Nazi's came to power. I have to rely on other sources for that statement. One site I have in my notes is

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuthe...alAncestor.html

There are many other sources as well.

I also recommend Tim Drake's book, Here We Stood, There We Stand, Eleven Lutherans Discover Their Catholic Roots (most of them were Lutheran ministers who became Catholics). Drake, a journalist, is one of the eleven whose story is contained in this book.

Oremus pro invicem, Jay (Katholikos)

[Ellenita]

I hope this wasn't too tedious for you to read

No, Katholikos, it was really fascinating. Thanks. :D

I never realised the history of the 'missing books' before. (can't call them the apocrypha any more! )

So, it has occurred to me reading this history that just as I have been taught by my protestantism that 'denominations' such as Latter Day Saints are wrong because they have added to the bible (and there are scriptures about that, though I can't remember them at the moment), so the basis of protestantism may well be wrong because Luther removed or changed the bible......woa, it feels a little like shifting sand beneath my feet...that's scarey.

[Anna]

Not to fear, Ellenita,

Christ built us a Church on solid ROCK!

"You are Peter ('Cephas' - "Rock") and upon this rock, I will build MY CHURCH.

Everyone is welcome aboard, on the bark of Peter! :wub:

Pax Christi. <><

[littleflower+JMJ]

Not to fear, Ellenita,

Christ built us a Church on solid ROCK!

"You are Peter ('Cephas' - "Rock") and upon this rock, I will build MY CHURCH.

Everyone is welcome aboard, on the bark of Peter! :wub:

Pax Christi. <><

amen anna!!

mt. 16:18

PILLAR OF FIRE, PILLAR OF TRUTH!

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Monica, I know you claim to not wanting to offend, but the cheap shots your taking is pretty obvious "Tainted with catholocism"?? come on now.

Dont play us to be stupid...

all you have to do is read Luther's OWN writings to see that the movie was very innacurate and the Church wasnt the evil culprit.

Im not sure what History books you are reading, but I suggest you throw the ones that say "Moody Bible" on them away.

So far i've only seen statements coming from you and no real questions like.."Why do Catholics do this..." thats a real question. not "Luther was still rather catholic....i mean he couldn't have made a clean break from protestantism wthout still being...let's call it "tainted" by catholicism. He still had some way to go"

And you're also confused on the fact that there was no other Christian Churchs until later on in Luthers evil task. IF there was inDouche a Protestant Church at that time, Luther would not have had to create the Luthern church. He would of just skipped over to the prots side.

So to say "During those days the Protestants were much closer to Christ than Catholics" is a childish an uneducated response. There was no Protestant Churchs, Only Catholic Church stood, and thats a Historical fact. Add that to your history books.

You keep mentioning the Early Christians, so tell me, name one (1) Protestant Early Christian. Show me one bit of writing from this Protestant Christian that dates before the 1500's..

You say your here to learn.I havent seen it, but I'll play along..so learn something already..Do some research on Early Church Fathers and tell me who you come up with. I bet my bottom dollar they will ALL be Catholic.

CatholicAndFanatical