death penalty

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 10:20 PM'] I think the Bishops have been very vocal in their opposition to abortion. See, for example, their document "Living the Gospel of Life" [/quote]
Thanks for pointing that out, Eremite. I guess I was thinking of bishops that were fudging on the whole Kerry issue (i.e. Catholics "voting their 'conscience'") that had my hackles up...

Or maybe I was thinking of Catholics that have no problem opposing DP but not abortion... never mind...

[Ash Wednesday]

After 9/11 I know a lot of people wanted to see any radical islamo-fascist terrorists especially related to the attacks dead -- I for one wonder if it would not be better to just make them share a pen with a pig or two since they apparently would find that appalling? They would want to "die" for their "cause" anyway so why grant them that? Here piggy piggy piggy! Soooeeee?

[Paphnutius]

I posted this on the debate board but here it is again:

"Forgiveness is giving up your right to see justice enacted."

As far as I know, the lex talonis (eye for an eye) was fulfilled when Christ said love your enemy.

No moral arguement here, just some thoughts to reflect on...

[Carnanc]

it is a question of prudence. Yes, the death penalty is a just punishment, but prudence asks the question, is it a necessary punishment. In the United States, where we have the ability to put people in prison where they will not harm society, the death penalty is rarely if ever needed.

from the Catachism-

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of [b]the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty[/b], if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself -[b] the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68[/b]

[myduwigd]

Ive heardmost people on row are proved inoocent after being killed.

Have any of you guys seen Man Walking?

Edited March 22, 2005 by myduwigd

[Guest Eremite]

I haven't seen Dead Man Walking, but I've seen the nun who it's based on get interviewed on Fox. She's a feisty one, lol.

[Iacobus]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 21 2005, 10:27 PM'] oh whatever. i bolded the part that is important to me. you bolded the part important to you. don't lash out at me because they weren't the same thing. either all or none? gimme a break i can't be responsible for what people choose to read...if they choose to read just the bolded parts or not. [/quote]


I wasn't lashing out at you. When I lash out at people I call them thinks like "stupid head (ask Voici when she get back on in Easter)." I didn't lash out at you. I liked that you posted the CCC thing, but when you bold one part it seems, to many people, to give it a sense of "importance." That is why newspapers bold headlines, text books bold key words, etc. It is just something that happens. I disagree with just bolding the part saying it is allowed but not bolding the later part about when it is to be used, a clearification of the first clause. That is just my two cents.

myduwigd, I don't know about MOST being cleared of the crime, but a significant number are found to be cleared. My state, IL, has communtied all DPs to life in prison when they found some large number (I want to say 13%, but I am really not sure) were not guilty. What happened in most cases were overzealous DA's wanting to make names for themsevles that withheld importance, clearing, edvandence (sp?). A lot of DNA was withheld and the cops actions after the arrest were "questionable."

Edited March 22, 2005 by Iacobus

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Iacobus' date='Mar 22 2005, 04:17 PM']

I wasn't lashing out at you. When I lash out at people I call them thinks like "stupid head (ask Voici when she get back on in Easter)." I didn't lash out at you. I liked that you posted the CCC thing, but when you bold one part it seems, to many people, to give it a sense of "importance." That is why newspapers bold headlines, text books bold key words, etc. It is just something that happens. I disagree with just bolding the part saying it is allowed but not bolding the later part about when it is to be used, a clearification of the first clause. That is just my two cents.
[/quote]
i understand your view...i may disagree, but i understand

[Iacobus]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='Mar 22 2005, 06:34 PM'] i understand your view...i may disagree, but i understand [/quote]
It isn't nice to stick your tounge out at people or point with anything sharper than an elbow, silly.

*Points elbow at screen saying, "She isn't nice"*

[jmjtina]

Abortion and the death penalty are not the same.

When people compare them, they usually throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Micheal5403]

People have stated earlier that the death penalty is more expensive that life in prison, but i'll give you some numbers: (since I just did a research paper on capital punishment) In NC it costs approximately 2.16 million dollars more for death penalty cases than for non-death penalty cases.

Also, some people have given reasons why the death penalty is not wrong, but can anyone give a practical reason for how the death penalty is positive?

And just to let you know, one of my major pet peeves is when people bring abortion into every debate. If the question doesn't involve abortion, don't add abortion to your reply. I don't care if you think it is a good example.

[cmotherofpirl]

Abortion always murders the innocent.
The Death Penalty, properly applied, excutes the guilty.

Big difference.

Deliberately murdering another means your own life is forfeit.

Edited March 23, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[myduwigd]

[quote name='Micheal5403' date='Mar 22 2005, 11:27 PM']
And just to let you know, one of my major pet peeves is when people bring abortion into every debate. If the question doesn't involve abortion, don't add abortion to your reply. I don't care if you think it is a good example. [/quote]
Why I bring it up is because I think that one cannot claim that you are pro life and not have a problem with the penalty also...I think it applies to my point.

[argent_paladin]

We shouldn't kid ourselves that the death penalty is the only form of "revenge" and all other punishment is not. Why do people want to make sure that prisons are not pleasant places? It is because they want it to be *punishment* and not mere protection of society. So, no tvs, weight rooms, conjugal visits, no voting, internet, etc. And, yes, execution won't bring a loved one back, but neither will life in prison. If killing to show that killing is wrong is stupid, then you have to show why imprisoning someone for imprisoning someone isn't wrong. Any argument you make against the death penalty, also has to allow for prison.
I am against the death penalty because it is already rare (only 50 executions last year), arbitrary (Texas and Virgina execute half), expensive (California has spent approximately $1 billion per executed inmate above the life-in-prison expense), racist and biased against the poor, and permanent (if errors occur, they cannot be corrected).
Retribution is at the heart of justice and cannot be ignored. Justice is giving people what they deserve and someone who violates the law deserves punishment. We must be careful that our desire for mercy does not create greater injustice.

I disagree also that abortion has much to do with the death penalty, de facto or de jure. In fact, most people who are against the death penalty are in favor of abortion and most people who are against abortion are in favor of the death penalty (until very recently). Direct abortion is an intrinsically immoral activity. The death penalty is not (it depends on the circumstances). Abortion kills about 1.5 million a year in the US. The death penalty killed 50. Abortion kills the wholly innocent, in the sanctuary of their mothers' wombs, causing their own mothers to cooperate in the murder of their own child, about the worst crime imaginable. The death penalty kills someone who has committed terrible crimes, has exhausted all appeals, has lived off the government for decades and who has the opportunity to recieve education, medical care and spiritual comfort. Executions took place in Vatican City until the early 20th century. Abortions have never taken place there. The decision as to whether the death penalty is appropriate ultimately rests with the government. That is not true of abortion. Support for the death penalty has ranged from fervent to lukewarm in the Church's history. The Church has always and everywhere condemned abortion.

[StPiusVPrayForUs]

[color=red] nope [/color]

A true work on what Holy Mother Church teaches about the death penalty.

Edited March 24, 2005 by cmotherofpirl