Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 (edited) [quote] I would argue that it is more common for people to repent on their deathbed and accept the execution (as the good theif did) than to repent in prison and persever until death.[/quote] We should kill all criminals, then. It will assure they don't sin anymore. Come on, give me a break. The Lord gave us a free will. He expects us to use it, not look to cop out of it. [quote]the Church's Holy Tradition has always held in great esteem the action of a person about to be executed who repents and accepts death as a just punishment. think good theif to bad theif "you and I DESERVE this punishment, He doesn't"[/quote] Dying isn't much of a punishment, ESPECIALLY when you're a Christian. The Christian WANTS to die and be at home with the Lord. A truly self-imposed punishment would be to remain for the remainder of his days in this veil of tears, toiling away in the solitude and harshness of prison. Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote]Your example is a non sequitor, because in the case of capital punishment it is justice itself that requires the death of the criminal, while in the case of slavery justice itself holds that the servant must be treated with respect, and as the Jewish Rabbis always taught, no man could be permanently enslaved, in spite of the teaching contained in Leviticus 25. The Rabbis held that Leviticus 25 had to be understood in coordination with the Oral Torah. [/quote] 1) God can enslave anyone he wants, for as long as he wants. 2) Justice itself requires that God cast us into hell for one breach of the moral law, yet he does not. God punishes us, but not with the supreme punishment. The same principle applies in the natural realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:19 PM'] We should kill all criminals, then. It will assure they don't sin anymore. Come on, give me a break. The Lord gave us a free will. He expects us to use it, not look to cop out of it. [/quote] No, we should punish criminals with a punishment that is commensurate with their crime. Thus, when one man takes the life of another innocent man, his life should be given in order to serve justice and restore the common good. As the Catechism originally pointed out, when a man accepts his punishment willingly, even if that punishment is the death penalty, it has an expiatory value. I hate to say it, but the earlier version of the [u]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/u] better reflected the universal Tradition of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote]No, we should punish criminals with a punishment that is commensurate with their crime. Thus, when one man takes the life of another innocent man, his life should be given in order to serve justice and restore the common good. [/quote] So St. Paul should have been killed, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:23 PM'] 1) God can enslave anyone he wants, for as long as he wants. [/quote] God cannot do anything contrary to the nature of the things He has created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:25 PM'] So St. Paul should have been killed, correct? [/quote] In the case of St. Paul the civil authorities would have been well within their rights to execute him for the crime he committed against St. Stephan. That they did not is a part of the providence of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 05:26 PM'] God cannot do anything contrary to the nature of the things He has created. [/quote] No, he can't. And there is nothing contrary to the nature of man to be under the dominion of another person. We all are, to a certain extent (parents, bishops, rulers, etc). God can give them complete dominion over us if he so wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:23 PM'] 2) Justice itself requires that God cast us into hell for one breach of the moral law, yet he does not. God punishes us, but not with the supreme punishment. The same principle applies in the natural realm. [/quote] Although I wouldn't word it this way, because it is far to Augustinian for me, I agree that man cannot make God his debtor and force God to give him the Beatific Vision. Salvation is a pure gift of grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote]In the case of St. Paul the civil authorities would have been well within their rights to execute him for the crime he committed against St. Stephan. That they did not is a part of the providence of God. [/quote] So basically, God failed to redress the disorder in society. Not only that, but he rewarded the person who introduced that disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:28 PM'] No, he can't. And there is nothing contrary to the nature of man to be under the dominion of another person. We all are, to a certain extent (parents, bishops, rulers, etc). God can give them complete dominion over us if he so wishes. [/quote] Yes, and as a consequence it is clear that the death penalty is completely acceptable, and moreover, the Lord Himself ordered its use in particular cases, and this is in no way contrary to His nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:30 PM'] So basically, God failed to redress the disorder in society. Not only that, but he rewarded the person who introduced that disorder. [/quote] The failure was not on God's part, but on the part of the civil authorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 05:31 PM'] Yes, and as a consequence it is clear that the death penalty is completely acceptable, and moreover, the Lord Himself ordered its use in particular cases, and this is in no way contrary to His nature. [/quote] I'm not arguing that capital punishment is not "acceptable". I've made that clear more than once. The only thing I'm arguing is that just become something is "acceptable" doesn't make it "necessary". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 05:33 PM'] The failure was not on God's part, but on the part of the civil authorities. [/quote] God could have easily prompted the civil authorities to kill Paul. Apparantly, he didn't want him dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:34 PM'] I'm not arguing that capital punishment is not "acceptable". I've made that clear more than once. The only thing I'm arguing is that just become something is "acceptable" doesn't make it "necessary". [/quote] I know you aren't saying that capital punishment is immoral, but the effect of your position is the same, you simply are saying that it is morally licit, but that it cannot be used. While I'm arguing that it is morally licit and that it can be used, and that based on both scripture and tradition, it sometimes must be used in order to restore justice in civil society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:36 PM'] God could have easily prompted the civil authorities to kill Paul. Apparantly, he didn't want him dead. [/quote] I am not a determinist, and so I really do believe in free will, and the civil authorities exercised it. The fact that they were derelict in the proper duties will be something that they will have to worry about on the day of judgment. God can draw good out of evil, even though man may never intentionally do evil so that good may come of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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