Catholic Bishops Plan Drive Against Death Penalty

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:47 PM'] I am not advocating anything. You are the one who is advocating something. I am denying what you are advocating. You say the Church has taught something, and yet cannot provide one Magisterial reference to this teaching. That is quite phishy. [/quote]
In fact you are advocating the abandonment of the teaching of the Roman Catechism.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]No one prior to the last 30 or 40 years would have argued in support of your position. [/quote]

We have already seen one person (a Saint no less) who argued that murderers don't have to be executed.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:47 PM'] I am not advocating anything. You are the one who is advocating something. I am denying what you are advocating. You say the Church has taught something, and yet cannot provide one Magisterial reference to this teaching. That is quite phishy. [/quote]
Actually I have provided a quotation from a Magisterial document (i.e., the Roman Catechism), now it is not my fault that you interpret the text in a modernist way.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]In fact you are advocating the abandonment of the teaching of the Roman Catechism.[/quote]

To the contrary. I am advocating an adherence to the Roman Catechism, which teaches that Capital Punishment is licit. Nowhere does the Roman Catechism teach civil rulers HAVE to kill people when there is no threat to human life. This is your self imposed doctrine.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:50 PM'] We have already seen one person (a Saint no less) who argued that murderers don't have to be executed. [/quote]
St. Gregory of Nyssa subscribed to the [i]apokatastasis[/i] heresy, so I suppose that you subscribe to that as well. It is only the consensus of the Fathers that binds Catholics.

[Guest Eremite]

And no, the Catechisms are not Magisterial documents. The doctrines they teach receive no other weight than what they already have. Thus, to determine the weight of a particular teachign, you have to look to true Magisterial documents. This is irrelevant in this case, however, because the Roman Cathechism doesn't teach what you profess, and neither does the Magisterium

"The individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole. Since it transmits what the Church teaches, whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Church (Cardinal Ratzinger, Introduction to the Catechism)

[Guest Eremite]

The consensus of the Fathers according to whose interpretation? Your own? The Magisterium? You have yet to show a Magisterial interpretation of the Fathers in your favor.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 20 2005, 11:01 PM'] As Cardinal Ratzinger recently wrote:

[/quote]
Hang on a second...it's okay to kill a human if we've convicted zir of a crime, but not if zie's a fetus who will kill zir host? I'm sorry, but what? Why is the death penalty okay, but abortion is murder? A human is a human no matter how small, right? So a human is a human no matter how large. But, suddenly, it's okay to kill them? When does this start? When they reach 18? Except, no, if they've asked for death we can't help them out. Only if they've been convicted of a crime.

That's internal consistency for you.

*boggles*

[Guest Eremite]

burn,

I'm sorry that you see no difference between Charles Manson and an infant. Perhaps that says more about you than it does about us.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:55 PM'] And no, the Catechisms are not Magisterial documents. The doctrines they teach receive no other weight than what they already have. Thus, to determine the weight of a particular teachign, you have to look to true Magisterial documents. This is irrelevant in this case, however, because the Roman Cathechism doesn't teach what you profess, and neither does the Magisterium

"The individual doctrine which the Catechism presents receive no other weight than that which they already possess. The weight of the Catechism itself lies in the whole. Since it transmits what the Church teaches, whoever rejects it as a whole separates himself beyond question from the faith and teaching of the Church (Cardinal Ratzinger, Introduction to the Catechism) [/quote]
A Catechism is a Magisterial document, whether issued by the Holy See, or by an individual bishop or conference of bishops; now that does not mean that everything presented in it is [i]de fide[/i], but clearly some of the teachings found in it would be binding upon the faithful.

Are you actually saying that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not a Magisterial document?

If you are, I suggest that you go to the Vatican website and read the documents in the Interdicasterial Commission for the Catechism of the Catholic Church, because the dossier issued by the Commission makes it quite clear that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a Magisterial document. As the Commission has said, the Catechism, "as a text of the Magisterium, in the sense that it was suggested by a Synod of Bishops, desired by the Holy Father, prepared in its redaction by Bishops, was the fruit of the consultation of the episcopate and approved by the Holy Father in his ordinary magisterium," and from this it is clear that it participates in the Ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, but of course this does not mean that everything asserted in it is [i]de fide[/i]; instead, it simply means that it is an official document of the Magisterium of the Church.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]now that does not mean that everything presented in it is de fide, but clearly some of the teachings found in it would be binding upon the faithful.[/quote]

They are binding insofar as they are already binding. As Cardinal Ratzinger explains above, something being in a Catechism doesn't make it binding. Its weight is judged by the Magisterial documents in which it is already taught.

The Catechism is a "Magisterial" document in the sense that it is issued by the Magisterium. But it is not a Magisterial document in the sense that its teachings have weight in themselves, as is true of Encyclicals and other documents. Again, Cardinal Ratzinger explains it best. To discern the weight and character of a teaching, you must look OUTSIDE the Catechism, to where it is taught. Doctrines do not receive any weight because they are in the Catechism.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:56 PM'] The consensus of the Fathers according to whose interpretation? Your own? The Magisterium? You have yet to show a Magisterial interpretation of the Fathers in your favor. [/quote]
Again, you seem to be confusing the Extraordinary Magisterium, which teaches through defining acts, with the Ordinary Magisterium, which teaches through non-defining acts. The distinction is a vital one, because the vast majority of the Church's definitive teachings have not been solemnly defined. In some recent cases the Holy Father has given official confirmations to existing [i]de fide[/i] doctrines, but this is itself an unusual practice.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Mar 21 2005, 03:12 PM'] Again, you seem to be confusing the Extraordinary Magisterium, which teaches through defining acts, with the Ordinary Magisterium, which teaches through non-defining acts. The distinction is a vital one, because the vast majority of the Church's definitive teachings have not been solemnly defined. In some recent cases the Holy Father has given official confirmations to existing [i]de fide[/i] doctrines, but this is itself an unusual practice. [/quote]
The ordinary Magisterium is not some magical collection of teachings. They are concrete. Humanae Vitae, for example, is a document of the Ordinary Magisterium. I can say "contraception" is wrong and point to the document where this is contained.

On the other hand, you say that the Church demands civil rulers kill people even when there is no danger to society. You haven't pointed to the document of the ordinary magisterium that makes this claim.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 01:11 PM'] They are binding insofar as they are already binding. As Cardinal Ratzinger explains above, something being in a Catechism doesn't make it binding. Its weight is judged by the Magisterial documents in which it is already taught.

The Catechism is a "Magisterial" document in the sense that it is issued by the Magisterium. But it is not a Magisterial document in the sense that its teachings have weight in themselves, as is true of Encyclicals and other documents. Again, Cardinal Ratzinger explains it best. To discern the weight and character of a teaching, you must look OUTSIDE the Catechism, to where it is taught. Doctrines do not receive any weight because they are in the Catechism. [/quote]
It has the weight of the Papal Magisterium behind it as an authoritative expression of the faith, just as the Pope through his Ordinary Magisterium can confirm an existing doctrine of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. But when the Pope confirms a doctrine, as in the case of the immorality of abortion or euthanasia, or when he stated that priestly ordination is reserved to men alone, the confirm, which participates in the infallibility of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, is not the source of the definitive nature of the doctrine in question.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 01:15 PM'] The ordinary Magisterium is not some magical collection of teachings. They are concrete. Humanae Vitae, for example, is a document of the Ordinary Magisterium. I can say "contraception" is wrong and point to the document where this is contained.

On the other hand, you say that the Church demands civil rulers kill people even when there is no danger to society. You haven't pointed to the document of the ordinary magisterium that makes this claim. [/quote]
Humanae Vitae is simply the confirmation of an already existing infallible doctrine of the Church, it is not a new definition of the faith. The same is true with the Pope's letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, which simply confirms and reaffirms an existing infallible doctrine [i]de fide tenenda[/i].