Catholic Bishops Plan Drive Against Death Penalty

[Guest Eremite]

Just in case we're talking past one another:

I'm not arguing that Capital Punishment is inherently wrong.

I'm not arguing that the Holy Father's opinion on the modern penal system is binding.

I AM arguing that the Church has never taught that the state has a DUTY to kill people, even when they are not a threat to society.

I AM arguing that the Holy Father's words in Evangelium Vitae may very well go beyond the pastoral, but address a development in docrinal principles. I am NOT arguing my opinion on the matter is right or wrong. I simply want a clarification from the Holy See, because it is up for question.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:16 PM'] Perhaps we can get to the heart of the issue.

Can you please cite a Magisterial document which teaches that capital punishment is not only allowed, but morally necessary, even if there is no threat to society?

And rather than decide for yourself whether the Holy Father was speaking doctrinally or not, why not just seek a clarification from the Holy See? [/quote]
I see, and it is sad that you don't accept the teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, which of course teaches doctrine through non-defining acts.

Now, have you ever read any of the manuals of theology issued prior to Vatican II, or any of the various books on moral theology issued prior to that time, or even the original edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church issued in 1992, because the Church has always held that certain grave and heinous offenses require the death penalty; offences like, mass murder, the murder of one parents, etc. This is also taught in sacred scripture, but I suppose that isn't important to many people today either. Clearly, over the past 30 years in the Latin Church there has been a general collapse of the understanding of the Church's pre-conciliar tradition. Now, I say this because there cannot be any improvement in the life of the Church until there is a recovery of the Church's theological tradition.

That being said, please show me documents -- homilies of popes, bishops, etc., and not necessarily issued by the Roman Curia, because you shouldn't be limited in that way -- from before Vatican II that teach that the death penalty should not be applied in capital cases, and that will suffice to show that your modernist views are correct.

As far as seeking a clarification is concerned, there is no need for one, because the moral teaching of the Church in relation to the use of the death penalty is a part of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]and it is sad that you don't accept the teaching of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, which of course teaches doctrine through non-defining acts. [/quote]

This is all I'm asking for. Please reference ONE document from the Magisterium which teaches that the State MUST kill people even if they are not a threat to society. It doesn't have to be a dogmatic declaration.

The theology manuals have no bearing on this discussion. They are not Magisterial teachings. All I'm asking for is one Magisterial document.

And now my views are "modernist"? Can you be more dramatic? You need to take a step back. Seriously.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:24 PM'] Just in case we're talking past one another:

I'm not arguing that Capital Punishment is inherently wrong.

I'm not arguing that the Holy Father's opinion on the modern penal system is binding.

I AM arguing that the Church has never taught that the state has a DUTY to kill people, even when they are not a threat to society.

I AM arguing that the Holy Father's words in Evangelium Vitae may very well go beyond the pastoral, but address a development in docrinal principles. I am NOT arguing my opinion on the matter is right or wrong. I simply want a clarification from the Holy See, because it is up for question. [/quote]
It has been revealed by God in sacred scripture, and has already been taught as a part of the Ordinary Magisterium, that capital punishment is licit. Any change which would say the opposite of this, would not be a development of doctrine, but a corruption.

That is why there is no need for a clarification from the Holy See on this issue, and that is also why Cardinal Ratzinger said what he did in his letter to the U.S. bishops.

As a faithful Catholic I will not participate in any activity which attempts to undermine the moral law and the tradition of the Church. That is why I will not participate in the USCCB's drive to make the death penalty illegal.

God bless,
Todd

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]It has been revealed by God in sacred scripture, and has already been taught as a part of the Ordinary Magisterium, that capital punishment is licit. Any change which would say the opposite of this, would not be a development of doctrine, but a corruption.[/quote]

As I already said, this is not in dispute. I've already indicated that Capital Punishment is LICIT. What I am challenging is your assertion that it is MORALLY NECESSARY even when there is not threat to society. You keep saying this is some foundation of the ordinary Magisterium, but haven't provided a single document to that end.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:29 PM']
This is all I'm asking for. Please reference ONE document from the Magisterium which teaches that the State MUST kill people even if they are not a threat to society. It doesn't have to be a dogmatic declaration.

The theology manuals have no bearing on this discussion. They are not Magisterial teachings. All I'm asking for is one Magisterial document.

And now my views are "modernist"? Can you be more dramatic? You need to take a step back. Seriously. [/quote]
From the Roman Catechism (1566):

[quote name='Execution of Criminals']Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. [i]The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of [b]paramount obedience[/b] to this Commandment which prohibits murder[/i]. The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

Eremite,

Now, please provide Magisterial documents, from prior to the Second Vatican Council, that support your contention.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:36 PM'] As I already said, this is not in dispute. I've already indicated that Capital Punishment is LICIT. What I am challenging is your assertion that it is MORALLY NECESSARY even when there is not threat to society. You keep saying this is some foundation of the ordinary Magisterium, but haven't provided a single document to that end. [/quote]
I have no problem in saying that a man who kills his parents must be executed for his crime.

[Guest Eremite]

First of all, a Catechism if not a Magisterial document. But I will address it anyway.

The Roman Catechism says nothing of Capital Punishment being NECESSARY even when there is no threat to life. In fact, it indicates that "The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life." Because Capital Punishment is OBEDIENT to that commandment, and because the end of that commandment is PROTECTION OF LIFE (not redress of disorder), then capital punishment is obedient insofar as it protects life.

Nowhere in the Roman Catechism do we see anything saying that the civil authorities MUST inflict death no matter what.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:42 PM'] First of all, a Catechism if not a Magisterial document. But I will address it anyway.

The Roman Catechism says nothing of Capital Punishment being NECESSARY even when there is no threat to life. In fact, it indicates that "The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life." Because Capital Punishment is OBEDIENT to that commandment, and because the end of that commandment is PROTECTION OF LIFE (not redress of disorder), then capital punishment is obedient insofar as it protects life.

Nowhere in the Roman Catechism do we see anything saying that the civil authorities MUST inflict death no matter what. [/quote]
Actually, it says that it is of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment to execute a criminal.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Now, please provide Magisterial documents, from prior to the Second Vatican Council, that support your contention.[/quote]

It is not my task to provide evidence, because I am arguing the ABSENCE of a teaching. You are arguing the PRESENCE of a teaching. You are saying the Church has positively taught something. I deny this. It is thus incumbent upon you to prove your assertion.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:44 PM'] It is not my task to provide evidence, because I am arguing the ABSENCE of a teaching. You are arguing the PRESENCE of a teaching. You are saying the Church has positively taught something. I deny this. It is thus incumbent upon you to prove your assertion. [/quote]
The absence is the absence of your position. No one prior to the last 30 or 40 years would have argued in support of your position.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Actually, it says that it is of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment to execute a criminal. [/quote]

Right. What is the end of the fifth commandment? "The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life". By extension, the end of Capital Punishment is the preservation and security of life.

It says nothing about the civil rulers MORAL DUTY to execute people if they can "preserve" and "secure" human life another way.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]At least you admit that there is an absence of the teaching you are advocating.[/quote]

I am not advocating anything. You are the one who is advocating something. I am denying what you are advocating. You say the Church has taught something, and yet cannot provide one Magisterial reference to this teaching. That is quite phishy.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:46 PM']
Right. What is the end of the fifth commandment? "The end of the Commandment­ is the preservation and security of human life". By extension, the end of Capital Punishment is the preservation and security of life.

It says nothing about the civil rulers MORAL DUTY to execute people if they can "preserve" and "secure" human life another way. [/quote]
This idea is clearly contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catechism, you've actually tried to turn the teaching on its head. Only a modernist could interpret the Roman Catechism in the way you are advocating.



As I have said before, we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.