Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 11:49 AM'] The punishment of death is fitting, but not morally necessary. The Lord noted this in his actions among the Israelites, who were to inflict death upon various grievous sins, such as blasphemy. But there is no MORAL necessity to punish blasphemers with death anymore than there is a MORAL necessity to punish murderers with death. As I said, the punishment is fitting, but not necessary. [/quote] I simply disagree with you on this point, because there are certain crimes so heinous in nature that they require the use of the death penalty, and this idea conforms to the universal Tradition of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 If it is the universal tradition of the Church, why did St. Ambrose note that God did not want to punish a homicide with another homicide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 11:49 AM'] His words went beyond the comment on the state of the penal system throughout the world. [/quote] As Cardinal Ratzinger clarified, no one is required to assent to the Pope's prudential judgments about the use of capital punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 11:55 AM'] If it is the universal tradition of the Church, why did St. Ambrose note that God did not want to punish a homicide with another homicide? [/quote] One Father is not the universal Tradition of the Church, and so no matter how interesting Ambrose's opinion is, one need not abide by it. The Church has constantly taught, in line with both sacred scripture and tradition, that the use of capital punishment is morally licit, and in some cases is necessary in order to redress the evil done, and restore the common good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 God Himself has given the power of the sword to the State, and no one, not even the Pope, can alter what God has willed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 Cardinal Ratzinger did not address the text of Evangelium Vitae. As you cited before, he said: [quote]While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote] The first part is obviously true, that it may be permissable to inflict capital punishment (in cases of defense). This we don't disagree on. The second part, however, can be taken in two ways. "Applying the death penalty" can refer either to the general application, even in cases that are not necessary for defense, or it can refer to the application in the modern world; ie, Catholics can disagree on whether cases of defense actually exist today. The way in which it is interpreted depends upon the Holy Father's intent in Evangelium Vitae, and thus adds another reason why a clarification is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 11:55 AM'] If it is the universal tradition of the Church, why did St. Ambrose note that God did not want to punish a homicide with another homicide? [/quote] "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image." [Gen. 9:6] The killing of an innocent man is homocide, but the execution of a criminal is an enactment of justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:01 PM'] Cardinal Ratzinger did not address the text of Evangelium Vitae. As you cited before, he said: [quote]While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote] The first part is obviously true, that it may be permissable to inflict capital punishment (in cases of defense). This we don't disagree on. The second part, however, can be taken in two ways. "Applying the death penalty" can refer either to the general application, even in cases that are not necessary for defense, or it can refer to the application in the modern world; ie, Catholics can disagree on whether cases of defense actually exist today. The way in which it is interpreted depends upon the Holy Father's intent in Evangelium Vitae, and thus adds another reason why a clarification is needed. [/quote] You are confusing a prudential judgment of the Pope with a dogma, and I refuse to follow you in that error. Although Catholics may debate about whether or not the death penalty should be used in a particular case, they may not debate the fact that capital punishment is morally licit. The morally licit nature of the death penalty is a truth of sacred scripture and of the apostolic tradition, and has been proclaimed as acceptable by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 (edited) [quote]One Father is not the universal Tradition of the Church, and so no matter how interesting Ambrose's opinion is, one need not abide by it.[/quote] Tradition comes from the Latin "to hand on". Obviously, St. Ambrose was handed on a different tradition from what you propose. Thus, it is not universal. [quote]The Church has constantly taught, in line with both sacred scripture and tradition, that the use of capital punishment is morally licit, and in some cases is necessary in order to redress the evil done, and restore the common good.[/quote] The Church has never taught that capital punishment is morally necessary. It is morally licit, but not morally necessary. [quote]"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in His own image."[/quote] As I commented on a previous thread on this topic, the citation of the Old Testament is a red herring, unless you are willing to restore Old Testament practices in every regard, including the execution of blasphemers and sabbath violaters. Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 I suppose in a sense that is fine and dandy that they are doing this, but I don't view it as a particularly great feat. Is it not more publicly "fashionable" to crusade against the death penalty than it is to, say, crusade against abortion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote]You are confusing a prudential judgment of the Pope with a dogma, and I refuse to follow you in that error.[/quote] Who said anything about dogma? Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, whether Evangelium Vitae involved more than a prudential judgement or not is hardly an open or shut case. An official clarification is needed from the Holy See on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:06 PM'] Tradition comes from the Latin "to hand on". Obviously, St. Ambrose was handed on a different tradition from what you propose. Thus, it is not universal. [/quote] I'm sure you are already aware that it is the consensus of the Fathers that is binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:06 PM'] The Church has never taught that capital punishment is morally necessary. It is morally licit, but not morally necessary. [/quote] On this issue we will have to agree to disagree. I will stick with the teaching of sacred scripture and the tradition of the Church, and you may follow the teaching of the Latin Rite bishops of the present day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Mar 21 2005, 12:08 PM'] Furthermore, as I have already pointed out, whether Evangelium Vitae involved more than a prudential judgement or not is hardly an open or shut case. An official clarification is needed from the Holy See on the matter. [/quote] On this issue, once again, we disagree. The Pope's comments are not the proper subject matter for a doctrinal definition, nor can they be applied as an authentic act of the Magisterium. The teaching of the Magisterium must be understood diachronically, and the Pope's comments clearly do not conform to the universal Magisterium on this issue. Thus, the are a prudential judgment of his, and no one is required to accept his comments as binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted March 21, 2005 Share Posted March 21, 2005 (edited) Perhaps we can get to the heart of the issue. Can you please cite a Magisterial document which teaches that capital punishment is not only allowed, but morally necessary, even if there is no threat to society? And rather than decide for yourself whether the Holy Father was speaking doctrinally or not, why not just seek a clarification from the Holy See? Edited March 21, 2005 by Eremite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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