Praying For The Dead

[Anna]

if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of religious leaders did:

Our Church leaders don't declare anyone is IN Purgatory or IN hell. That is for God to decide.

Our Church leaders will sometimes declare when someone is in heaven, when it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that the individual is with God, by recorded miracles obtained from God through the saint's intercession.

The Church has never declared any particular soul is in purgatory or in hell, yet we know these states exist.

"But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory..." Pg. 249, #954

Notice the Church doesn't say WHO is WHERE...just states that these places exist, and some souls are ( logically) there...

If you suffer, it's not a gift

Didn't you just tell us that Christ's suffering on the Cross was a free gift?

If we suffer united to Him, it is a gift inDouche.

If we lose our life for His sake, it is a gift.

"He who loves his life, loses it; he who hates his life, gains it."

"if you love me, deny your very self, pick up your cross, and come, follow me."

What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven.

Can you see now from the many Bible quotes provided that there is a state of purification before entering paradise?

There are others....

Matt 22:2-14; Lk 14:16-24

Matt 22:2-14 "The Kingdom of Heaven is like a certain king, who made a marriage feast for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast, but they would not come. Again he sent out other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, "Behold, I have made ready my dinner. My oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the marriage feast!"‘ But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his merchandise, and the rest grabbed his servants, and treated them shamefully, and killed them. When the king heard that, he was angry, and he sent his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the marriage feast.’ Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man who didn’t have on wedding clothing, and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here not wearing wedding clothing?’ He was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and throw him into the outer darkness; there is where the weeping and grinding of teeth will be.’ For many are called, but few chosen."

While all are called to the wedding feast, (Heaven) only those in proper attire (pure souls, in a state of grace) may attend.

"You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels" (Revelation 3:4,5).

"I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed" (Revelation 3:18).

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel. Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, 'Take away the filthy garments from him.' And to him He said, 'See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.' And I said, 'Let them put a clean turban on his head.' So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the LORD stood by" (Zechariah 3:1, 3-5).

After King David had repented of terrible sins, he prayed to God: "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow" (Psalm 51:9).

"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Rebuke the oppressor; Defend the fatherless, Plead for the widow. 'Come now, and let us reason together,' Says the LORD, 'Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool'" (Isaiah 1:16-18).

Of the martyrs under the altar we read: "Then a white robe was given to each of them" (Revelation 6:11).

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" (Revelation 7:9,10). "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes'" (Revelation 7:13-17).

If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the Catholic church institute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones?

The Bible is clear on this subject, and the Church hasn't persuaded faithful members to give millions of dollars to have prayers said....The Church has given the faithful efficacious prayers we can pray to release the souls from purgatory---for free. Masses are also free, a "free will offering" is accepted, which generally offsets the expense of the electricity, heat, airconditioning, lights, candles, linens, Communion hosts and Communion wine....many folks I know offer a stipend of $5 - $10 for a Mass...does it sound like the Church is celebrating Masses for profit? I don't think so!

The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:

"...feed the church of God, which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28 

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1

These quotes don't disprove the existence of purgatory.

You've got purgatory wrong. It isn't a place of eternal punishment, and it isn't a condemnation. It is merely a place where we go to get our robes clean!

Would an honest, loving God offer you eternal life as a free gift - then make you suffer to earn it - then lie about it in His Word?

Would an honest, loving, and JUST father promise to take you to a banquet, and not see to it that you are properly clothed? Purgatory does not deprive a soul of heaven, it GUARANTEES it! Now, there is Blessed Assurance!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8 

You seem to think that the Church teaches that those who are in a state of purgation are not saved, not justified, etc. They are saved, they are justified, their souls are simply being made presentable for presentation to God Almighty.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited November 1, 2003 by Anna

[Paladin D]

Remember, Purgatory is a "state", not an actual place.

Also, no one is clearly sure how long the process is. Of course it varies amongst each person, but the concept of time is much different in the afterlife.

[Katholikos]

Remember, Purgatory is a "state", not an actual place.

Also, no one is clearly sure how long the process is.  Of course it varies amongst each person, but the concept of time is much different in the afterlife.

Paladin, go to the head of the class. You're learning your lessons well! :D

[Monica]

Your replies are very interesting. Food for thought.

[littleflower+JMJ]

;) yes. especiallly with scripture.

To deny Purgatory is to deny the truth of the Bible....

1 Peter 3:19 Matt. 12:32 Luke 12:59 2 Macc. 12:43-46 Rev 20:13-15

Rev. 21:27 1 Cor 3:15 Isaiah 6:6-7

what have you concluded monica?

[Monica]

Here's an article that sums up perfectly what i believe about purgatory. Or, better said, i believed before cracks started to appear.

Though there is no biblical basis for purgatory, there is a strong philosophical need for it in Roman Catholic theology. The Church views salvation as the objective adornment or beautification of the soul. It is a process which starts at baptism through which sanctifying grace is initially infused. This makes the soul holy and inherently pleasing to God. Other sacraments and good works further justify the soul and make it increasingly attractive to God. The goal is to transform the essential character of the soul into something which is in itself objectively good. It is, therefore, only reasonable to require the complete cleansing of every vestige of sin before the soul can come into the presence of God. Purgatory, therefore, is the logical extension of the Church’s process of salvation.

Purgatory is also an integral element of the Roman Catholic penitential system. According to the Church, every sin credits temporal punishment to the sinner’s account. Acts of penance, suffering, and indulgences debit this account. Since sinners may not make full satisfaction for sin in this life, purgatory in the afterlife is necessary to balance the ledger.

Finally, the Church uses purgatory to motivate Catholics to live righteously. If there were no purgatory, the reasoning goes, people would go on sinning without fear.

Biblical salvation, on the other hand, has no need of a place such as purgatory. Biblical salvation does not rely on the works and sufferings of sinners, but solely upon Christ. The Lord Jesus "made purification of sins" (Hebrews 1:3) on the cross. His blood can cleanse the vilest sinner (Hebrews 9:14). There is no temporal punishment remaining for which the believer must atone; Jesus paid it all: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2).

Biblical salvation has no need for a place such as purgatory where the soul supposedly becomes objectively beautiful to God. Rather, it is rooted in God’s imputation of His own perfect righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). Biblical salvation brings a "righteousness that is by faith from first to last" (Romans 1:17 (NIV)). The sinner places his trust in Christ for justification. He walks by faith and through the enablement of the Spirit lives righteously. Nevertheless, he has no hope of ever being personally and objectively good enough in himself to stand in the presence of God. He trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Philippians 3:7-9).

Rather than focusing on the good works and suffering of the individual, biblical salvation emphasizes the perfect work of Christ. He is sufficient to make sinners "stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy" (Jude 24). God no longer looks at the person as a defiled sinner, but sees him only in Christ (Ephesians 1:1-14), "holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:4).

Finally, biblical salvation involves a new birth that results in a new creation (John 3:7; 2 Corinthians 2:17; Galatians 6:17; Ephesians 2:15). A born-again Christian wants to obey God. He is motivated by the love of Christ, not the fear of painful retribution (2 Corinthians 5:14; Romans 8:15).

Do Catholics Still Believe in Purgatory?

Many modern Catholics think of purgatory as a relic from the Dark Ages, which they would just as soon forget. Some Catholics even believe that purgatory is no longer a Roman Catholic doctrine.

Despite popular opinion, however, purgatory is still an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church and an essential part of the Roman Catholic plan of salvation. The Church affirmed the existence of purgatory at each of the last three ecumenical councils: Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II. The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation "in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments." According to Vatican II, "in purgatory the souls of those ‘who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions’ are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt." The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of "cleansing fire."[1031]

Belief in the existence of purgatory is also expressed at every Mass. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, prayers are offered for the dead. Usually the Mass itself is also offered for someone suffering in purgatory. The person’s name is announced or published in the Sunday bulletin. Each year, in fact, on the anniversary of the death of the last pope, the present pope offers Mass for the souls of his two predecessors who are, presumably, still suffering in purgatory.

Adapted from The Gospel According to Rome by James G. McCarthy, Harvest House Publishers, © 1995. This article is indexed to the numbered paragraphs of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The paragraph numbers are in brackets.

Notes:

i. Council of Trent, session 25, "Decree Concerning Purgatory."

ii. First Vatican Council, session 2, "Profession of Faith."

iii. Second Vatican Council, "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church" no. 49 and no. 51.

iv. Second Vatican Council, "Sacred Liturgy," "Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences," no. 2.

v. Second Vatican Council, "Sacred Liturgy," "Apostolic Constitution on the Revision of Indulgences," no. 3.

vi. Pope John Paul II offers Mass for John Paul I and Paul VI on September 28, the anniversary of the death of John Paul I ("The Lord Gives Us Confidence." L’Osservatore Romano, October 7, 1992, p. 1.)

[littleflower+JMJ]

To deny Purgatory is to deny the truth of the Bible....

1 Peter 3:19    Matt. 12:32  Luke 12:59 2 Macc. 12:43-46    Rev 20:13-15 

Rev. 21:27  1 Cor 3:15 Isaiah 6:6-7

ironmonk always hits the nail right on the head.

read his post over. not just catholics believe in such monica.

thanks ironmonk!

:D

[jmjtina]

May I ask Monica, where is that article from?

Edited November 2, 2003 by jmjtina

[Monica]

yes. especiallly with scripture.

what have you concluded monica?

I'm trying not to be hasty. I'm reading slowly and pondering.

[Monica]

May I ask Monica, where is that article from?

does it matter?? :blink:

[littleflower+JMJ]

:ph34r:

[jmjtina]

Sorry, found it! ;)

[littleflower+JMJ]

:ph34r:

[jmjtina]

James G. McCarthy is an Anti-Catholic. Enough said.

Monica, you are on the right track. Keep the thoughts and reflections coming! I know it can be tough with school AND this!!!! B)

I give you props, b/c takes alot of time just to read! (Which is why I procrasinate in almost everything! )

Edited November 2, 2003 by jmjtina

[Monica]

:ph34r:

:huh: