Praying For The Dead

[Monica]

OK, everythings one post down...

Edited October 31, 2003 by Monica

[Monica]

OK, correct me if i'm wrong, tell me your opinion.

Catholicism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called purgatory for further purification before entering heaven:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are inDouche assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. " Pg. 2658, #1030

"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect..." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Did this critical doctrine come from God, or is it another tradition of men? Here' s your answer, right out of the Catechism:

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Is it unreasonable to ask where a group of men got their information about the afterlife to formulate such a doctrine?

if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of religious leaders did:

"But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory..." Pg. 249, #954

If you suffer, it's not a gift

What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Would an honest, loving God offer you eternal life as a free gift - then make you suffer to earn it - then lie about it in His Word?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:24

The Apostle Paul drives home this same point:

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..." 1 Corinthians 6:11

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:

"...but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

God's children are not required to suffer for salvation because they have been bought and paid for:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:

"...feed the church of God, which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the Catholic church institute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones?

wasn't the doctrine of purgatory hatched from the minds of mortal men:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1

Edited October 31, 2003 by Monica

[cmotherofpirl]

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - these verses allude to a temporary state of purgation called a "prison." There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed, in the state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful inDouche.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purificatioin, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Top

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 - Paul says though he will be saved, "but only" through fire. The phrase "but only" in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - when Paul teaches that those whose work is burned up will suffer loss, the phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. This means that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, which cannot mean either heaven (no need for it) or hell (expiation no longer exists).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death.

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

[jmjtina]

"The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture."

This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment." It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

Some prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.

Sometimes Protestants object that Jesus told the thief on the cross that, on the very day the two of them died, they would be together in paradise (Luke 23:43), which they read as a denial of purgatory. However, the argument backfires and actually supports purgatory by proving the existence of a state other than heaven and hell, since Jesus did not go to heaven on the day he died. Peter tells us that he "went and preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19), and, after his resurrection, Christ himself declared: "I have not yet ascended to the Father" (John 20:17). Thus at that time paradise was located in some third state besides heaven and besides hell.

+JMJ

[IcePrincessKRS]

Excellent posts Cmom and Tina. :)

[BLAZEr]

I'm gonna tackle this one at a time:

Catholicism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called purgatory for further purification before entering heaven:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are inDouche assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. " Pg. 2658, #1030

"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect..." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Did this critical doctrine come from God, or is it another tradition of men? Here' s your answer, right out of the Catechism:

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Is it unreasonable to ask where a group of men got their information about the afterlife to formulate such a doctrine?

Where to begin: First of all, when the Church says "formulated her doctrine" she is referring to how the Church makes clear the language of something we already hold to be true. The Church cannot invent a teaching. In fact, it is part of the Church's teaching that Doctrine cannot be created from scratch. Doctrine's purpose is to define accurately what the Church has always believed and taught. That is why she says immediately after "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent." The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: And she quotes St. Gregory the Great (who lived from 540-604 AD) when he says "As for certain lesser faults, we must beleive that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that woever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirity will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offense can be fogiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."

St. Gregory (who was also a Pope) goes to show that the Church has always taught and understood this scripture passage in this way. the Council of Florence (1438) and Trent (1545) were more about 1000 years after Pope St. Gregory spoke these words.

Also, since the Church from the earliest days (St. Paul himself) was using the Septuigent canon of the Hebrew Bible which includes the Book of the Maccabbees, the passge where Judas Maccabeus makes atonement for the dead is also understood by the Church to mean that we pray for our dead because they are being purified.

The Catechism also quotes St. John Chrysostom (347-407) who says in his Homilies "Let us help and commemoreate them [the dead]. if Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them."

The church has always been praying for the dead. The docrtine, however, was not articulate in its precise form (formulated) until Florence and Trent.

[jmjtina]

If you suffer, it's not a gift

Yes, it is a gift and an act of mercy.

persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones?

Millions and Millions of dollars from memorial Masses?

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.

Have you checked out the links and info we provided you with?

Hope everything helps Monica! B)

Edited October 31, 2003 by jmjtina

[Dave]

OK, correct me if i'm wrong, tell me your opinion.

Catholicism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called purgatory for further purification before entering heaven:

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are inDouche assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. " Pg. 2658, #1030

"The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect..." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Did this critical doctrine come from God, or is it another tradition of men? Here' s your answer, right out of the Catechism:

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent." Pg. 268-269, #1031

Is it unreasonable to ask where a group of men got their information about the afterlife to formulate such a doctrine?

Wrong! The doctrine was formally defined at those councils, but it had been believed even before the time of Christ. The ancient Jews believed in purgatory and prayed for the dead and for their purification. It wasn't a group of men who dreamed it up! When the Church defines doctrines, it's usually when a heresy of some kind is rampant. That's so that there will be no question as to what is true doctrine.

if you are praying for loved ones you believe are in purgatory, you need to be aware that God didn't tell you they were there, a group of religious leaders did:

"But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory..." Pg. 249, #954

If you suffer, it's not a gift

Wrong. Some suffering is a blessing. It was very merciful thing for God to do to allow us the chance to go to purgatory. Yes, there's suffering there, but it's a happy place because everyone who's there is guaranteed heaven! I mean, it's much better than having to suffer in hell for all eternity! Besides, the Bible makes it clear that nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

What makes this doctrine even more disturbing is that the Bible never indicates such a place exists. Neither does the Bible teach that further purification after death is necessary to earn going to heaven. On the contrary, God's Word declares that salvation is a free gift:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23

"...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." Romans 5:18

Would an honest, loving God offer you eternal life as a free gift - then make you suffer to earn it - then lie about it in His Word?

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" Ephesians 2:8

If the Bible is to be believed, then there is no need for further purification for those who die in Christ. They have already been justified by Jesus:

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:24

The Apostle Paul drives home this same point:

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..." 1 Corinthians 6:11

True Christians are already purified because Jesus put away all sin on the cross:

"...but now once in the end of the world hath he (Jesus) appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." Hebrews 9:26

God's children are not required to suffer for salvation because they have been bought and paid for:

"For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 Corinthians 6:20

The price was the blood of Jesus Christ:

"...feed the church of God, which he (Jesus) hath purchased with his own blood." Acts 20:28

Just because you never see the word "purgatory" in the Bible doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Bible never uses the word "Trinity" either. But you don't discount the Trinity because of that, do you? In 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, we learn that it's a good thing to pray for the dead. I know you don't consider that part of scripture, but that's another topic entirely. In Matthew 12:32, Jesus says that whoever sins against the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven in this age OR the age to come. Well, if there's only heaven and hell, how could sins be forgiven in the age to come? People in heaven don't need forgiveness, and people in hell can't be forgiven. So there's got to be another place.

I could give you even more Bible references if you like.

In addition, purgatory is NOT a denial of the sufficiency of Christ's redemption. When we sin, even when we repent and are forgiven, there's still the debt of temporal punishment. Whatever necessary temporal punishment we don't undergo during our life, we have to undergo it in purgatory.

Think of King David. After he was confronted with the sins of adultery and murder, he truly and sincerely repented. But as punishment, his baby died anyway. Likewise, if you did something bad, and you sincerely apologized to your parents, they'd surely forgive you. But you'd still be grounded, right? After all, you need to be taught a lesson. Can we expect less?

If you say yes, you're wrong. Jesus died so our sins could be forgiven. He did NOT die so that we wouldn't have to undergo the temporal punishment for our sins.

If the Bible is so clear on this subject, why did the Catholic church institute a doctrine that has persuaded faithful members to give multiplied millions of dollars to the church to have prayers and Masses said on behalf of departed loved ones?

wasn't the doctrine of purgatory hatched from the minds of mortal men:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1

As I said earlier, purgatory is NOT a man-made doctrine. Nor does it contradict any of the Bible verses you provided. And as for the idea of millions of dollars given to the Church to have Masses said for the deceased, I think you really misunderstand it. It's customary (but NOT obligatory) to give a priest a stipend (usually not more than $5) for saying a Mass for any given intention. It's based on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). Priests may only receive one stipend per day. No one gets rich off of $5 a day, and the Church doesn't receive the money anyway -- just the priests.

[cmotherofpirl]

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: "Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983). Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful

[Katholikos]

Bravo! Bravo! Jay shouts and applauds all who answered Monica (bends and touches toes).

I just want to add one small point, addressing Monica's statement:

"Did this critical doctrine come from God, or is it another tradition of men?"

The Catholic Church and its doctrines are God-made by the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ Himself. Jesus taught the Apostles, and the Apostles taught the Church -- long before the NT existed.

All Protestant denominations are man-made. We know the date they were made and the name of the men (and women) who made them, from the historical record. None are older than the 16th century, and most are from the 20th and 21st century. The teachings they may have "borrowed" from the Catholic Church (e.g., the Trinity) are God-made, but each denomination contains other doctrines that are man-made as well. They got them out of the same Bible -- each with a new and different interpretation. The Bible is a Catholic book. It is stolen property in Protestant hands.

Protestant denominations are partially true. Catholicism is wholly and completely true, since God Himself is the author of all of its doctrines.

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

[Uncle Gus]

Question. Before Benjamin Franklin discovered electiricity, did it exist? No one knew anything about it, so does that mean that when he discovered it, he made it up?

[Donna]

Are we not baptized into the death of Christ Jesus?

The servant is not above his master.

If we "put on Christ" (that is, are baptized and pursue/persevere in grace and the Faith), the Footsteps we tread in will inevitably lead to Calvary.

'

(P.S. Hi, Monica. You have a beautiful and saintly name. It is the name of St. Monica, mother of St. Augustine. She suffered in tears and prayed w/ great patience for her heretic son, Augustine, who became a Doctor and Father of the Catholic Church.)

P.P.S. I'm a convert; was not forced to convert; part of my story is that I became convinced of Jesus' Real Presence in the Eucharist at a series of Latin Masses, not knowing what was going on nor understanding what was said.

It happens.

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But still I, and we all, suffer.

May you receive the love of the truth.

[Mary's Knight, La]

here's the same thing i did for the all-priests must be men post

formulated in the sense used in your quote means the formal expression of truth already taught

it is possible to die and still have an affinity for sin though without totally destroying your relationship with God (you have a desire to do something wrong but don't out of obedience or a similar reason) I wont ask you to distinguish between mortal and venial sin yet

This causes an imperfect relationship with God which means you would not be able to fully experience Heaven (e.g. to get to Heaven you must undergo some correction)

If you die in an imperfect (but existant) relationship to God that relationship must be corrected between death and Heaven this is purgatory

It is painful/unpleasant in the sense that reprimand is unpleasant when you have done something wrong

Christ through His crucifixion has blessed suffering that is joined to His that though unpleasant it may yield spiritual benefits in this case the correction of your soul

[ironmonk]

OK, correct me if i'm wrong, tell me your opinion.

Catholicism teaches that after death, some people are sent to a place called purgatory for further purification before entering heaven:

Monica,

It's not just the Catholic Church that teaches that. For someone to attack the Church concerning purgatory, is almost as bad as the "call no man father" attack... it only proves ignorance.

The teaching of Purgatory dates back thousands of years to the Jews.

Protestant's that attack the Church on grounds of purgatory are ignorant of many things. Protestants do not teach deep history for a reason... because to be rich in history is to cease to be protestant.

As for the purifying...

The Catholic Church only gave 'it' a name.... 'Purgatory'... a purging of any minor sins before we enter Heaven, for we know, all sin is not deadly, and no sin may enter Heaven.

Isaiah 6:5-7

Then I said, "Woe is me, I am doomed! For I am a man of unclean lips, living among a people of unclean lips; yet my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"

Then one of the seraphim flew to me, holding an ember which he had taken with tongs from the altar.

He touched my mouth with it. "See," he said, "now that this has touched your lips, your wickedness is removed, your sin purged."

Read below (from Jewish site: http://www.jewfaq.org/death.htm#kaddish)

Kaddish

Kaddish is commonly known as a mourner's prayer, but in fact, variations on the Kaddish prayer are routinely recited at many other times, and the prayer itself has nothing to do with death or mourning. The prayer begins "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days ..." and continues in much that vein. The real mourner's prayer is El Molai Rachamim, which is recited at grave sites and during funerals.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d's injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

A person is permitted to recite Kaddish for other close relatives as well as parents, but only if his parents are dead.

To deny Purgatory is to deny the truth of the Bible....

1 Peter 3:19 Matt. 12:32 Luke 12:59 2 Macc. 12:43-46 Rev 20:13-15

Rev. 21:27 1 Cor 3:15 Isaiah 6:6-7

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[RUN-D.R.E.]

:huh:

When Ironmonk states that Protestants are ignorant, he is saying it with a lot of love. I felt his compassion - (tearing up) it touched me man!

B)

Seriously, check his statement, research into the past to see what you put your trust in came from. If someone 1500 years after Christ teaches something different - don't listen.

JC is my MC,

RUN-D.R.E.