All-male Priesthood

[Faithful heart]

My husband and I are Catholic, for the first part of our marriage we did not practice our faith (sad)

We decided that I would stay home with the children. I got so much grief from family and friends like, "When are you going to get a job." or "Are you just going to live off your husband." Even the other day a friend of mine told me she could never depend on a man for money. The first few years I was depressed being a stay at home mom because I thought I was not contributing to society. Well I came back to my faith full force and as a women it was the most liberating thing that could ever happen to me. Knowing that living out my calling is respectful, and that what I do does matter. To me the Church respects every calling a women has mother, single, or religious. I know this was about women being priests but this is just the way I feel about how the Church has shown it's love to me as a women.

[cmotherofpirl]

Amen Sister!!!

[Aloysius]

that's amesome, faithful heart!

it's so great to here from humble and pious women who want to follow God's call and not move their own little agenda!

all should be that humble, and accept their role in life as it is preordained by God, whether it's being married, single, or Religious. B)

[Uncle Gus]

Originally posted by Monica

If he had been a woman nobody would have listened to him. Women were supressed in that society. He HAD to be a man. And he had to pick men for the same reason.

Are you saying that God _had_ to become a man or else it wouldn't have worked? You mean the same God who can do anything, right? I don't think God is limited by arguments of gender. However, it's not really even about whether God could have been a woman or not, I know he could have if he wanted, but this is how He _chose_ it, and that's all the argument you need. Why do we call God "Father"? Because that's how _He chose_ to reveal Himself, and no other reason. And who are we to question God? The Pope has already said the same thing, regarding priesthood. He said, (paraphrased) "it has nothing to do with male superiority or anything like that, we simply cannot ordain women because Jesus did not give us authority to. Why? Who knows? He does. He chose it to be this way."

So there's no point in arguing with the Catholic Church as to why we don't have female priests, take it up with God, it's His own doing.

Edited November 2, 2003 by Uncle Gus

[Winchester]

Monica,

How oppressed were women in Jewish society at that time? Too oppressed, say, to write Scriptures accepted by the Jews for teaching? Women did have a voice, and were listened to. Jesus could have come as a woman and been heard, developed a following. You may have noticed from the New Testament that He ended up being executed for His teachings, hardly a glowing acceptance from society, anyway.

In your premise that Jesus HAD to be a man and had to pick male apostles, you have limited the power of God. You have said that God had no choice in the matter.

Christ went against societal norms. Acceptance by society at large was obviously not God's intent.

Are there other ways to serve God than being a priest?

Women in the Days of the Cathedrals by Regine Pernoud will give you ample proof of the liberation of women. If you want a quicker read "Those Terrible Middle Ages" by the same will suffice.

[Seminarian]

Monica,

Can a woman be a father?

Of course not! A father is by definition of the male sex. This is true 100% of the time, no exceptions.

A woman can not be a father.

That is why a woman can not be a priest, because a priest must be a father.

Why is a priest a father? For two reasons: 1) The sacrificial role of the priest is so closely connected with Jesus' use of the words "Father" and "Son" that they cannot be separated. 2) Part of the priest's role of acting "in persona Christi" requires him to represent Christ as bridegroom to the greater Church as bride.

Every bible reference here is given the most obvious meaning, with no serious questions of interpretation.

Fatherhood references:

Abraham prophesied that God would provide a substitute victim for mankind, to save Abraham's descendants. This allowed Abraham's son Isaac to be spared. (Gen. 22.8)

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross perfectly fulfilled the Jewish Passover, and Abraham's prophecy. (Hebrews 8-10, 1 Cor. 5)

The Passover victim must be a first-born male. (Exodus 12) Isaac and Jesus were first-born sons.

The father of the family performs the Passover sacrifice. Widows do not hold their own Passover but join a local family. (Exodus 12, Deuteronomy 16) Therefore, the Passover priest (father) and victim (son-substitute) must both be of the male sex.

Priesthood in the Old Testament is associated with fatherhood. (Judges 17.10, 18.19)

Jesus called God his Father, and Himself God's Son (All four gospels, 40+ examples): In light of his self-sacrifice, a clear reference to a Father's role at Passover.

Jesus is the Passover lamb, sacrificed to save his people from sin. (John 1, 1 Peter 1, Revelation 5, Acts 8)

The only priesthood that can now exist is the priesthood of Christ. (Hebrews 9,10)

Jesus and the Father are one, Jesus is both priest and victim. (John 14, Hebrews 9)

So the priesthood of the Church, if it is to be truly the priesthood of Christ, must be of the Father and the Son, the priest and the Passover victim.

When a priest says mass, he is representing God the Father in offering the Passover sacrifice, God the Son as victim. His physical being represents the maleness in those names. The one who has seen me has seen the Father. Jn. 14.9

Father and Son are by definition male terms.

The Catholic priesthood has always represented a unity of God's priesthood (Father) and victim-hood (Son). This is probably why Catholics call priests Father.

From apostolic times, Christians insisted that only a male preside at liturgies. (1 Cor. 14, 1 Timothy 2)

The early church called spiritual leaders "fathers". (Acts 7,13,22) St. Paul considered Father a title given only to the most important teachers. (1 Cor. 4)

An early Church document by St. Ignatius of Antioch, just one generation after the apostles, explains why Bishops should be called Father. (Letter to the Magnesians) This date is so early in the Church's history that it is uncertain how many priests there were at this time.

Bridegroom references:

The New Testament refers to Christ as groom, and the Church as his bride, identifying Christ's role with the specifically male role of husband and father. (Mt 9, Mk 2, Jn 3, 2 Cor. 11, Rev. 19, 21,22)

The relationship of Christ to His Church resembles the relationship of a husband to his wife. (Eph. 5.23-32)

The fatherhood of men to their families is based on God's Fatherhood. (Eph. 3.14-15)

These passages alone cannot prove the Church's teaching. (No teaching of the Church can be "proven" true in a scientific sense.) But by showing a rationale for the male apostolic tradition, they establish a clear connection between the priest's role and maleness. No one can honestly deny this connection in light of these verses. The burden of proof rests on anyone claiming that there is "no scriptural basis" for this teaching. I am waiting to hear from them, and suspect I shall wait forever.

Ecumenical considerations: The largest Christian tradition after Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, holds the priest to be an "icon of Christ". This tradition includes physical resemblance, (maleness) and is probably related to the fatherly role above. The Protestant denominations that ordain women ministers do not believe in the Catholic theology of a sacrificial priesthood. These denominations have wandered theologically from historical Christianity. (They are a small minority among Christians, and are declining numerically.)

[ironmonk]

Monica,

Did you know that the presbyterian church was started by a Catholic priest - John Knox...

How is he not counted in Acts 20:30?

Here is an article from www.Catholic.com:

Can women be ordained to the priesthood? This is a question which provokes much debate in our modern world, but it is one to which the Church has always answered "No." The basis for the Church’s teaching on ordination is found in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the Church Fathers.

While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:1–16), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:11–14), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:34–38).

The following quotations from the Church Fathers indicate that women do play an active role in the Church and that in the age of the Fathers there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but that these women were not ordained.

The Fathers rejected female ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. Throughout medieval times and even up until the present day, this teaching has not changed.

Further, in 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4).

And in 1995 the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in conjunction with the pope, ruled that this teaching "requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25:2)" (Response of Oct. 25, 1995).

The following quotations from the Fathers constitute a part of the tradition on which this infallible teaching rests.

Irenaeus

"Pretending to consecrate cups mixed with wine, and protracting to great length the word of invocation, [Marcus the Gnostic heretic] contrives to give them a purple and reddish color. . . . [H]anding mixed cups to the women, he bids them consecrate these in his presence.

"When this has been done, he himself produces another cup of much larger size than that which the deluded woman has consecrated, and pouring from the smaller one consecrated by the woman into that which has been brought forward by himself, he at the same time pronounces these words: ‘May that Charis who is before all things and who transcends all knowledge and speech fill your inner man and multiply in you her own knowledge, by sowing the grain of mustard seed in you as in good soil.’

"Repeating certain other similar words, and thus goading on the wretched woman [to madness], he then appears a worker of wonders when the large cup is seen to have been filled out of the small one, so as even to overflow by what has been obtained from it. By accomplishing several other similar things, he has completely deceived many and drawn them away after him" (Against Heresies 1:13:2 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"It is of no concern how diverse be their [the heretics’] views, so long as they conspire to erase the one truth. They are puffed up; all offer knowledge. Before they have finished as catechumens, how thoroughly learned they are! And the heretical women themselves, how shameless are they! They make bold to teach, to debate, to work exorcisms, to undertake cures . . . " (Demurrer Against the Heretics 41:4–5 [A.D. 200]).

"[A female heretic], lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism. . . . But we, little fishes, after the example of our Icthus [Greek, "Fish"], Jesus Christ, are born in water . . . so that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes, by taking them away from the water" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"It is not permitted for a woman to speak in the church [1 Cor 14:34–35], but neither [is it permitted her] . . . to offer, nor to claim to herself a lot in any manly function, not to say sacerdotal office" (The Veiling of Virgins 9 [A.D. 206]).

Hippolytus

"When a widow is to be appointed, she is not to be ordained, but is designated by being named [a widow]. . . . A widow is appointed by words alone, and is then associated with the other widows. Hands are not imposed on her, because she does not offer the oblation and she does not conduct the liturgy. Ordination is for the clergy because of the liturgy; but a widow is appointed for prayer, and prayer is the duty of all" (The Apostolic Tradition 11 [A.D. 215]).

The Didascalia

"For it is not to teach that you women . . . are appointed. . . . For he, God the Lord, Jesus Christ our Teacher, sent us, the twelve [apostles], out to teach the [chosen] people and the pagans. But there were female disciples among us: Mary of Magdala, Mary the daughter of Jacob, and the other Mary; he did not, however, send them out with us to teach the people. For, if it had been necessary that women should teach, then our Teacher would have directed them to instruct along with us" (Didascalia 3:6:1–2 [A.D. 225]).

Firmilian

"[T]here suddenly arose among us a certain woman, who in a state of ecstasy announced herself as a prophetess and acted as if filled with the Holy Ghost. . . . Through the deceptions and illusions of the demon, this woman had previously set about deluding believers in a variety of ways. Among the means by which she had deluded many was daring to pretend that, through proper invocation, she consecrated bread and performed the Eucharist. She offered up the sacrifice to the Lord in a liturgical act that corresponds to the usual rites, and she baptized many, all the while misusing the customary and legitimate wording of the [baptismal] question. She carried all these things out in such a manner that nothing seemed to deviate from the norms of the Church" (collected in Cyprian’s Letters 74:10 [A.D. 253]).

Council of Nicaea I

"Similarly, in regard to the deaconesses, as with all who are enrolled in the register, the same procedure is to be observed. We have made mention of the deaconesses, who have been enrolled in this position, although, not having been in any way ordained, they are certainly to be numbered among the laity" (Canon 19 [A.D. 325]).

Council of Laodicea

"[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church" (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius of Salamis

"Certain women there in Arabia [the Collyridians] ... In an unlawful and blasphemous ceremony ... ordain women, through whom they offer up the sacrifice in the name of Mary. This means that the entire proceeding is godless and sacrilegious, a perversion of the message of the Holy Spirit; in fact, the whole thing is diabolical and a teaching of the impure spirit" (Against Heresies 78:13 [A.D. 377]).

"It is true that in the Church there is an order of deaconesses, but not for being a priestess, nor for any kind of work of administration, but for the sake of the dignity of the female sex, either at the time of baptism or of examining the sick or suffering, so that the naked body of a female may not be seen by men administering sacred rites, but by the deaconess" (ibid.).

"From this bishop [James the Just] and the just-named apostles, the succession of bishops and presbyters [priests] in the house of God have been established. Never was a woman called to these. . . . According to the evidence of Scripture, there were, to be sure, the four daughters of the evangelist Philip, who engaged in prophecy, but they were not priestesses" (ibid.).

"If women were to be charged by God with entering the priesthood or with assuming ecclesiastical office, then in the New Covenant it would have devolved upon no one more than Mary to fulfill a priestly function. She was invested with so great an honor as to be allowed to provide a dwelling in her womb for the heavenly God and King of all things, the Son of God. . . . But he did not find this [the conferring of priesthood on her] good" (ibid., 79:3).

John Chrysostom

"[W]hen one is required to preside over the Church and to be entrusted with the care of so many souls, the whole female sex must retire before the magnitude of the task, and the majority of men also, and we must bring forward those who to a large extent surpass all others and soar as much above them in excellence of spirit as Saul overtopped the whole Hebrew nation in bodily stature" (The Priesthood 2:2 [A.D. 387]).

The Apostolic Constitutions

"A virgin is not ordained, for we have no such command from the Lord, for this is a state of voluntary trial, not for the reproach of marriage, but on account of leisure for piety" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:24 [A.D. 400]).

"Appoint, [O Bishop], a deaconess, faithful and holy, for the ministering of women. For sometimes it is not possible to send a deacon into certain houses of women, because of unbelievers. Send a deaconess, because of the thoughts of the petty. A deaconess is of use to us also in many other situations. First of all, in the baptizing of women, a deacon will touch only their forehead with the holy oil, and afterwards the female deacon herself anoints them" (ibid., 3:16).

"[T]he ‘man is the head of the woman’ [1 Cor. 11:3], and he is originally ordained for the priesthood; it is not just to abrogate the order of the creation and leave the first to come to the last part of the body. For the woman is the body of the man, taken from his side and subject to him, from whom she was separated for the procreation of children. For he says, ‘He shall rule over you’ [Gen. 3:16]. For the first part of the woman is the man, as being her head. But if in the foregoing constitutions we have not permitted them [women] to teach, how will any one allow them, contrary to nature, to perform the office of the priest? For this is one of the ignorant practices of Gentile atheism, to ordain women priests to the female deities, not one of the constitutions of Christ" (ibid., 3:9).

"A widow is not ordained; yet if she has lost her husband a great while and has lived soberly and unblamably and has taken extraordinary care of her family, as Judith and Anna—those women of great reputation—let her be chosen into the order of widows" (ibid., 8:25).

"A deaconess does not bless, but neither does she perform anything else that is done by presbyters [priests] and deacons, but she guards the doors and greatly assists the presbyters, for the sake of decorum, when they are baptizing women" (ibid., 8:28).

Augustine

"[The Quintillians are heretics who] give women predominance so that these, too, can be honored with the priesthood among them. They say, namely, that Christ revealed himself . . . to Quintilla and Priscilla [two Montanist prophetesses] in the form of a woman" (Heresies 1:17 [A.D. 428]).

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Theologian in Training]

Monica,

Welcome to phatmass and enjoy your stay here.

As to your question in particular, it seems most have gone to great lengths to provide a sufficient answer. Therefore, I would like to just add one thing.

From the bible alone, taking Jesus' example, we see that nowhere in the bible did Jesus commission women to "go a preach to all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Further, though women were present in His life: crucifixion, Cana, etc., nowhere do we see women taking the same role as the men did by the authority of Jesus, especially with regard to sacramental conferrance.

Also, in the bible, there is a laying on of hands for those commisioned. Again, though women were present, none of them were invited to have hands laid upon them. Now, don't think that women have absolutely no role in the Church as a result of this, rather, it is that women were and are given different roles than those of the men. Does that mean that the men could do it better than the women? Certainly not, for an army of martyrs and Saints, that are women, attest to this fact. Further, a great many of our Saints, who are also "Doctors of the Church," are women. Some of the most widely and greatly celebrated among them: St. Teresa of Avila, St Teresa of the Little Flower, and St. Catherine of Siena.

Essentially, what is comes down to is what God willed for us, and how He wished to institute the Church. Archbishop Fulton Sheen used to say that if Christ were to ordain anyone it would have been Mary herself. Why didn't that happen? I have no idea, all I can say is that is how God wanted it, and far be it from me to question what God desires.

Sometimes, when it comes to God, the seemingly simple things just don't make sense, of course, it is then when faith is so important.

Again, Welcome

God Bless

Edited November 2, 2003 by Theologian in Training

[jbliss145]

Monica,

It's a good question. The important thing to remember is that the Church is NOT taking a "sexist" stand. Men and women are absolutely equal in dignity, but they are not the same. The roles of men and women are decided by God and God alone. Sometimes we have to sit back and simply say, "I don't know the answer, but I trust in God and I trust in His Church."

Women have a role in the Church that is beyond measure and beyond the capablilities of a man. Everyone is baptised into the priesthood, only men enter into the Sacramental Priesthood. Women are called to evangelize and to be spiritual mothers to their children and to those around them. Spiritual motherhood is a role that ONLY a women could fulfill.

I heard a priest bring up a very interesting point. He said that motherhood, being a physical part in the creation of human life, and bringing a gift from God into this world is beyond the shadow of a doubt the greatest of graces and the greatest of gifts. And although he would love to be able to possess that grace and that gift (as would I) it is never going to happen. No man can or will ever be a mother. No man will ever possess that gift or play that part. Is that unfair? No. It's God's way. No woman can or will be a priest. Is that unfair? No, it's God's way. It is Church Dogma, it can NOT change. Why? I simply don't know. I think some women would make great priests. What I do know, however, is that it is not for me to decide. I MUST trust in God because he always knows best. And Oh, how clearly we will see in Heaven. Until then we MUST place our trust in Jesus Christ and His Church. I hope this helps. Thanks again for the question!! It's a great one.

God Bless,

Joe

[Faithful heart]

That was very nice jbliss. :rolleyes:

[IcePrincessKRS]

MOST of you.

What do you make of people like this;

http://www.womenpriests.org/welcome.htm

We are Roman Catholic theologians who firmly believe that the discussion on women priests should be left open.

We love our family, the Catholic Church. We fully accept the authority of the Pope. We respect his personal integrity as an outstanding spiritual leader. But we are convinced that the Pope and his advisors in Rome are making a serious mistake by dismissing women as priests. We feel obliged in conscience to make our carefully considered reasons known. “All the faithful, both clerical and lay, should be accorded a lawful freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought and freedom of expression” Gaudium et Spes, no 62.

People like that aren't faithful to the Catholc Church and her teachings, plain and simple.

They CLAIM to FULLY accept the authority of the Pope yet they don't accept the teaching that only MEN can be priests which always has been and always will be a part of the Church.

They clearly are misinterpreting Gaudium et Spes. Its a classic case of cut and paste to conform to what I want. You see done ALL the time, especially with the Bible.

The others have done an excellent job explaining this teaching, I don't think I can add much more.

[Uncle Gus]

Taken from the website

We are Roman Catholic theologians who firmly believe that the discussion on women priests should be left open.

We love our family, the Catholic Church. We fully accept the authority of the Pope. We respect his personal integrity as an outstanding spiritual leader. But we are convinced that the Pope and his advisors in Rome are making a serious mistake by dismissing women as priests. We feel obliged in conscience to make our carefully considered reasons known. “All the faithful, both clerical and lay, should be accorded a lawful freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought and freedom of expression” Gaudium et Spes, no 62.

First of all, that opening statement should read "We are heretics." They claim to be Catholic, yet they differ on several points of dogma and doctrine. Dictionary definition of a heretic there, folks.

Even putting aside the actual issue of female ordination, "We fully accept the authority of the Pope," yet "But we are convinced that the Pope and his advisors in Rome are making a serious mistake..." So basically, to paraphrase, "we accept the authority of the Pope, but we don't accept the authority of the Pope." Okay, well, you've got me convinced *cough*

[cmotherofpirl]

Remember it took a woman to bring Jesus into this world.

What could be a greater honor than that?

[Uncle Gus]

The more you understand about Catholic theology, the more you will understand the beauty and dignity of Woman. There is nothing more beautiful in all of creation than Woman.

Edited November 3, 2003 by Uncle Gus

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Monica you said that your church has women pastors, this is one reason why protestantism is wrong and going against Jesus.

We are called to follow Christs lead, we do what he did. He ordained men, so should we..no exceptions.

Women can be in a religious order though an become nuns like Mother Teresa.

Why cant men be nuns? im jealous, how sexists!!