Things I would have to give up...

[argent_paladin]

Point 2 and 3-- Catholics practically invented this. There are so many different kinds of communities, from full-fledged religious orders like the Dominicans and Franciscians, to lay associations linked to those groups, to Opus Dei to many Confraternities (Marian, Rosary, Holy Name), to Knights of Columbus, etc, etc. There are so many ways that you can start a group of fellowship, prayer and mutual support. Only God knows the number of religious groups and thousands are founded every year, some become large, but most stay small.

Point 4- Liturgy means "public work" in Greek. It is distinct from private prayer and worship. If one person were to "take over" by praying or singing, it might not be what someone else wants or needs. It would no longer be public. The priest cannot improvise because the priest isn't leading the worship. He is merely assisting in his role serving the Bishop and the whole Church by being faithful to its decrees.
I was born and raised in the Assemblies of God. Now I am attending Byzantine Catholic services, about as far as you can get from spontaneous. But in a way it is more free and more spiritual. God is not impressed with our originality or creativity. It is our service and worship he desires.

[Matt Black]

To answer the question, I last went to Mass for my grandmother's funeral in December and of course I went to Mass every week until I was 12. I haven't really come across charismatic Catholics here in the UK - perhaps those of you who are big in Charismatic Renewal or whatever its called in the US could point me to something in or around Portsmouth or Southampton...?

I think that the cultural shift could be very profound and that kind of scares me. looking at my infant son last night when I was feeding him, could I see him in a few years clutching his copy of 'My Missal' (which is what I had) ready for his First Communion? I really don't know.

And the other thing is the whole assurance of salvation thing. Now I know that if you scratch an evangelical, unless they're a TULIP 5-point hard-core Calvinist, most would agree that you can lose your salvation of one repudiates it; it just seems to me from memory at least that Catholics are much more vague about the idea. I would find that degree of uncertainty about my salvation very unsettling...plus the idea that the Church could somehow regulate it...which brings me on to the whole thing of to what extent does the Church act as an intermediary between me and God; I would be disturbed with the idea that I cannot get access to God/ Jesus direct but have to go through the Church.

Yours in Christ

Matt

Edited March 15, 2005 by Matt Black

[God Conquers]

I don't think the salvation and "regulation" issues are as big as you think Matt.

Catholics believe that we have been saved (by the salvific death and resurrection of Christ), we are being saved (by our complicity in God's grace day to day) and hope to be saved (when Christ returns in Glory). It's not so much vague as secure... knowing that it depends both on God's actions in the past and future (which we can be quite sure of), and our own daily walk with Christ (which we have complete control over).

As for the regulation of salvation thing.... well, it's again completely up to you in your relationship with God. You can choose to go to Mass every day, or just on Sundays. You can choose to confess daily, weekly, monthly or yearly, and no priest can ever refuse to hear your confession.

It is a misconception that salvation in the Church is mediated through anyone but Christ. The sacraments allow us direct contact with God's grace, and the priest acts in Christ's place. This alsomeans that your intimate life with God is still completely up to you. The sacraments are just one piece of the puzzle, personal prayer, study of scripture, fellowship and service are huge parts of the Christian life and are completely at the mercy of your whims and no one else's. Your spiritual life is still 100% regulated by YOU.

Sometimes I wish it wasn't.... I'd have more excuses.

I can imagine there would be some culture shock... some of the reconciled brothers among us can speak better about that than a cradle catholic like myself.

God Bless

Matt

[Brother Adam]

Uncertianity about salvation? Anything but. By becoming Catholic you will be far more assured of your salvation than you ever have been before. The Bible never once gives the absolute assurance of entering heaven upon death at any given point in time - but it gives us the full HOPE of the assurance of heaven.

Meaning there is no OSAS, but if you believe in OSAS you never actually know if you are saved, because you could be a person who thought they believed but really didn't and may end up learning like many people that they didn't 'really' trust in Jesus. When you are a Catholic you know when you are in grace and when you are not, and it isn't because of any works you have done. If you choose to cut your own relationship off with God with full knowledge, will, and consent, that is your free choice, but you will know you are doing it, and then you will know you need to be reconciled, a reconciliation which is free of any works or sacrifices. If you are in grace though, you know your going to heaven when you die.

Jesus Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man. When you go to confession, you confess to God with the aid of a priest there to listen and offer advice and penance. The priest grant's absolution - because Christ is not physically there with you. You hear the words coming out of the priests mouth, but in reality, it is Christ speaking to you through the priest - "You're sins are forgiven, go and sin no more". Look up 'absolution'.

You always have direct access to Jesus. If you are a Catholic and are neglecting a strong prayer life to our Lord and Savior, you're in trouble. It is graces in the sacraments that flow through the Church. We ourselves are 'bound by the box' God is not. We look to the Church that Jesus Christ established, not as a replacement for God, but as where God's grace is abudently flowing. All the Church professes is christocentric.

I think what scares people more, it certianly did me, was having to give up my will and my own ways (I could be any kind of Protestant I wanted and believe anything I thought was right for me) for God's will and ways. Giving up such freedom is scary.

Sorry for babbling! So much more I could say but I'm off to school.

Adam

[Matt Black]

Adam, can you unpack for me a bit more the bit about 'knowing one is in grace', please?

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Matt Black]

Sorry for double-post, but here's what I wrote to a Catholic friend of mine a week or so ago:-

"Re the whole Catholic thing: I'm still (in so far as I am able currently) weighing things up and thinking things over. For anything substantial (or transubstantial!) to happen there I think two things would need to occur:-

1. I would need to be convinced of the 'correctness' of the Catholic Church and all Her teachings ( as opposed to eg: Anglicanism, Orthodoxy or Lutheranism). That I think is gradually happening; the more I research, pray and think, the more that is becoming a reality. Sometimes though it - Catholicism - 'feels' very 'alien' after nearly 20 years within one form or another of evangelicalism, despite my having been raised in the Church. I kind of need some kind of 'sign' from God, I feel

2. I think Sarah would need to be similarly convinced. Coming from an Exclusive Brethren background with its attendant anti-Catholicism, that is more difficult, and up until the weekend I have pretty much refrained from saying much about it out of fear of straining our marriage further, limiting myself to commenting that I'm going through a 'theological struggle'. But I did broach the subject on Saturday with her and we talked eg: about the Real Presence in the patristic literature and in particular Ignatius writing within a decade of the Apostle John's death etc, and I think I've given her a lot of food for thought there."

Yours in Christ

Matt

[Theoketos]

Matt,

I have never even come close to being protestant, and I have experienced all those things. And what is more is that they are made even better with a deeper faith, so that even we I do not feel good or holy they still are effecacious.

Honestly, I would find a silent retreat to go on, the longer the better.

[Brother Adam]

Matt,

I haven't meant to neglect your question on OSAS / Assurance of Salvation. It sits at #1 on my list of things I want to get done after homework is caught up. I just got back from spring break and have been slammed with work. If you want to red a whole book on the concept, especially in the context of soteriology, I would strongly suggest "How to get to heaven" by Robert Sugenis. I can even get you copy for half off ($6) if you let me know soon. It is very in depth and very well done. Not for the amature.

I will try to have an answer up by this weekend.

[ironmonk]

Brother,

Here are some audio tracks that can help explain some things faster than the message board...

[url="http://www.maxbrackett.com/audio01.asp"]http://www.maxbrackett.com/audio01.asp[/url]


Your Servant in Christ,
ironmonk

[epiclesis]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Mar 15 2005, 09:31 AM']I kind of need some kind of 'sign' from God, I feel

[/quote]
Perhaps, God has been speaking to you for some time on this, and that is why you have been led to the place that you find yourself now. Signs from God don't need to be extraordinary. Sometimes God speaks to us through the most ordinary events in our lives.

[Dennis]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Mar 14 2005, 10:27 AM']small groups – called variously housegroups, cell groups, home groups etc. Basically a place where 6-12ish Christians meet to pray for the world, the Church and one another, support, Bible study etc; it also acts as a springboard for mutual support etc through the rest of the week[/quote]
Matt,

My parish [b]has[/b] [url="http://www.ascensioncatholic.net/scc.html"]"Small Christian Community"[/url] groups :group: that do [i]precisely[/i] what you are referring to! If you're attending a parish that doesn't have them, talk to the priest about starting one! You'll probably be surprised by the positive response from the other parishioners...