Things I would have to give up...

[Matt Black]

I'm posting this with the aim that Phatmassers either

(a) disabuse me of my assumptions or

(b) talk me round anyway

1. My ‘ministry’, as I pompously call it. I have in the past both preached, been a pastor of sorts and taught and am not sure there would be ‘room’ for such gifts as I may have in those areas to be used in the Church
2. small groups – called variously housegroups, cell groups, home groups etc. Basically a place where 6-12ish Christians meet to pray for the world, the Church and one another, support, Bible study etc; it also acts as a springboard for mutual support etc through the rest of the week
3. Flowing from the above, the idea of fellowship with the Christians in the local church generally, and I don’t just mean here a quick chat over a coffee after the service, but real, ongoing friendship. One of the things that bothered me in the last year or so of my Catholic grandmother’s life is that, being more or less housebound, she felt unsupported by her Parish. Sure, the priest and communion ministers did their bit, but hardly anyone just ‘dropped round’ to see if she needed anything or just give her a bit of company
4. Spontaneity in worship – with a bit of the charismatic type of Christianity in me, I would miss the kind of worship service when eg: the person leading worship stops in response to a prompt from the Holy Spirit and there’s a bit of extemporary prayer

That’ll do for the moment; I’m sure I can think of more though

Yours in Christ

Matt
.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

You might be interested in the following article (based on concern #4). I saw Alex Jones on EWTN a few weeks ago. He talked about worshiping God in the Mass on Sunday mornings and then having his own private (sort of charismatic) worship time on Sunday nights. And you might be interested to know, if you don't already, that there are charismatic Catholic worship services. We have one here in the Atlanta area.


Pastor and Flock Convert to Catholicism JUDY ROBERTS


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When Pentecostal minister Alex Jones came into the Church this past Easter he was not alone. He brought much of his congregation in with him.
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When Pentecostal minister Alex Jones came into the Church this past Easter he was not alone. He brought much of his congregation in with him.
When Detroit-born Alex Jones became a Pentecostal minister in 1972, there was little question among those who knew him that he was answering God's call to preach.

Now, many of his friends and family have dismissed the 59-year-old pastor as an apostate for embracing the Catholic faith, closing the nondenominational church he organized in 1982, and taking part of his congregation with him.

At this year's April 14 Easter Vigil, Jones, his wife, Donna, and 62 other former members of Detroit's Maranatha Church, was received into the Catholic Church at St. Suzanne's Parish. For Jones, becoming a Catholic will mark the end of a journey that began with the planting of a seed by Catholic apologist and Register columnist Karl Keating. It also will mean the beginning of a new way of life.

Jones first heard Keating, the founder of Catholic Answers, at a debate on whether the origins of the Christian church were Protestant or Catholic. At the close, Keating asked, "If something took place, who would you want to believe, those who saw it or those who came thousands of years later and told what happened?"

"Good point," Jones thought, and tucked it away. Five years later, while he was reading about the church fathers, Keating's question resurfaced. Jones began a study of the Church's beginnings, sharing his newfound knowledge with his congregation.

To illustrate what he was talking about, in the spring of 1998 he re-enacted an early worship service, never intending to alter his congregation's worship style. "But once I discovered the foundational truths and saw that Christianity was not the same as I was preaching, some fine-tuning needed to take place."

Soon, Maranatha Church's Sunday service was looking more like a Catholic Mass with Pentecostal overtones. "We said all the prayers with all the rubrics of the Church, all the readings, the Eucharistic prayers. We did it all, and we did it with an African-American style."

Not everyone liked the change, however, and the 200-member congregation began to dwindle. Meanwhile, Jones contacted Detroit's Sacred Heart Seminary and was referred to Steve Ray of Milan, Mich., whose conversion story is told in Crossing the Tiber.

"I set up a lunch with him right away and we pretty much had lunch every month after that," said Ray. He introduced Jones to Dennis Walters, the catechist at Christ the King Parish in Ann Arbor, Mich. Walters began giving the Pentecostal pastor and his wife weekly instructions in March, 1999.

CROSSROADS

Eventually, Jones and his congregation arrived at a crossroads. On June 4, the remaining adult members of Maranatha Church voted 39-19 to begin the process of becoming Catholic. In September, they began studies at St. Suzanne's.

Maranatha closed for good in December. The congregation voted to give Jones severance pay and sell the building, a former Greek Orthodox church, to the First Tabernacle Church of God in Christ.

Father Dennis Duggan, St. Suzanne's 53-year-old pastor, said the former Maranatha members and their pastor along with about 10 other candidates comprise the 750-member parish's largest-ever convert class.

UNITY AND DIVERSITY

Although not all parishioners at predominantly white St. Suzanne's have received the group warmly, Father Duggan, who also is white, said he considers the newcomers a gift and an answer to prayer.

"What the Lord seems to have brought together in the two of us — Alex and myself — is two individuals who have a similar dream about diversity. Detroit is a particularly segregated kind of community, especially on Sunday morning, and here you've got two baptized believers who really believe we ought to be looking different."

Father Duggan hopes eventually to bring Jones onto the parish staff. Already, he has encouraged Jones to join him in teaching at a Wednesday night Bible service. And, he is working on adapting the music at Masses so that it better reflects the parish's new makeup.

The current European worship style at St. Suzanne's has been the most difficult adjustment for the former Maranatha members, Jones said, because they had been accustomed to using contemporary music with the Catholic prayers and rituals. "The cultural adaptation is far more difficult than the theological adaptation," he said.

PROTESTANT ISSUES

Jones said the four biggest problems Protestants have with Catholicism are teachings about Mary, purgatory, papal authority, and praying to saints. He resolved three of the four long ago, but struggled the most with Mary, finally accepting the teaching on her just because the church taught it.

"It is so ingrained in Protestants that only God inhabits heaven and to pray to anyone else is idolatry. ... The culture had so placed in my heart that only the Trinity received prayer that it was difficult."

He is writing a paper on the appropriateness of venerating Mary for a class at Detroit's Sacred Heart Seminary, where he is taking prerequisite courses for a master's degree in theology and pastoral studies. He also is writing a book for Ignatius Press and accepting speaking engagements through St. Joseph Communications, West Covina, Calif.

Jones, the father of three married sons and grandfather of six, is leaving the question of whether he becomes a priest up to the Church.

"If the Church discerns that vocation, I will accept it. If not, I will accept that, too. Whatever the Church calls me to do, I will do."

Although he has given up his job, prestige, and the congregation he built to become Catholic, Jones said the hardest loss of all has been the family and friends who rejected him because of his decision.

"To see those that have worshiped with and prayed with me for over 40 years walk away and have no contact with them is sad."

It was especially painful, he said, when his mother, who had helped him start Maranatha, left to go to Detroit's Perfecting Church, where his cousin, gospel singer Marvin Winans, is the pastor.

Neither Winans nor the pastor of the church that bought Maranatha's building would comment on Jones' conversion. Jones also is troubled that those he left behind do not understand his decision.

"To them, I have apostasized into error. And that's painful for me because we all want to be looked at as being right and correct, but now you have the stigma of being mentally unbalanced, changeable, being looked at as though you've just walked away from God."

Jones said when his group was considering converting, prayer groups were formed to stop them. "People fasted and prayed that God would stop us from making this terrible mistake. When we did it, it was as though we had died."

He said Catholics do not fully understand how many Protestants see their church. "There's this thin veneer of amicability, and below that there is great hostility."

But he remains convinced he is doing the right thing.

"How can you say no to truth? I knew that I would lose everything and that in those circles I would never be accepted again, but I had no choice," he said.

"It would be mortal sin for me to know what I know and not act on it. If I returned to my former life, I would be dishonest, untrustworthy, a man who saw truth, knew truth, and turned away from it, and I could just not do that."

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT

Judy Roberts. "Pastor and Flock Convert to Catholicism." National Catholic Register. (June 20, 2001).

This article is reprinted with permission from National Catholic Register. To subscribe to the National Catholic Register call 1-800-421-3230.

THE AUTHOR

Judy Roberts writes from Millbury, Ohio.

Copyright © 2001 National Catholic Register



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[Jake Huether]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Mar 14 2005, 09:27 AM'] 1. My ‘ministry’, as I pompously call it. I have in the past both preached, been a pastor of sorts and taught and am not sure there would be ‘room’ for such gifts as I may have in those areas to be used in the Church
[/quote]
There are many many ways to use this gift within the Church! You don't have to be a Priest to preach. Of course, in order to officialy rep. the Church, you probably would have to become a Deacon, or take some sort of "training". But there are a whole bunch of people that speak at conventions, retreats, meetings, and the like. My Uncle has, my mother does... Plenty of outlets and even official positions for this gift.


[quote]2. small groups – called variously housegroups, cell groups, home groups etc. Basically a place where 6-12ish Christians meet to pray for the world, the Church and one another, support, Bible study etc; it also acts as a springboard for mutual support etc through the rest of the week[/quote]


My Mom and Dad lead a prayer group every Wednesday. They hold a group meeting in their house every second Tuesday of the month. And basically they are both gone from Monday through Saturday right after work to late in the evening meeting at variouse convetntions, retreats, religiouse events, etc.. I don't know how they do it, but they do! The Lord gives them strength I'm sure.

[quote]3. Flowing from the above, the idea of fellowship with the Christians in the local church generally, and I don’t just mean here a quick chat over a coffee after the service, but real, ongoing friendship. One of the things that bothered me in the last year or so of my Catholic grandmother’s life is that, being more or less housebound, she felt unsupported by her Parish. Sure, the priest and communion ministers did their bit, but hardly anyone just ‘dropped round’ to see if she needed anything or just give her a bit of company[/quote]


That is the problem with many Catholics. They get into the idea that Sunday Mass is it. This is totally wrong! Of course, Mass is the source and summit of our Faith and Strength by recieving the Gift of God's own Son's Body and Blood! But outside of Mass there are, as previously mentioned, conventions, retreats, meetings, social gatherings, etc.

I imagine that the reason these gatherings are more commonly known among Protestants because they don't really have a Mass on Sunday. Correct me if I'm wrong, but their Sunday "Service" is a springboard for these gatherings. My friend's Congregation meets after the Sunday service for a social gathering. The Mass, on the otherhand, is not a platform for this (althogh there are general announcements about events, etc. after Mass). The Mass is an event set appart for Communion, where we hear the Word and receive the Word. It isn't the place for socializing. As a Communion, we are there to Worship God - not to build "out" the Church, but to build UP the Church.



[quote]4. Spontaneity in worship – with a bit of the charismatic type of Christianity in me, I would miss the kind of worship service when eg: the person leading worship stops in response to a prompt from the Holy Spirit and there’s a bit of extemporary prayer[/quote]


My Parents and most of my Family are huge in the Charismatic Renewal, within the Catholic Church. If you are into this, there's probably Charismatic events and gatherings that happen pretty much daily - if you search them out. Just because you go to Mass, doesn't mean you have to miss out on the other "goodies".

Like I said before, the Mass is the source and summit of Catholic life. It is unfortunate that Catholics doen't use this LIFE and live it up outside of Mass. And so Protestants and those outside Catholic circles think that we only go to Mass. Or that the Mass is the only Catholic event available for us. Soooooo not true.

My Parents alone support:

Wednesday prayer meeting
Group meeting every second Tuesday
Eucharistic Adoration and musical worship every first Friday
Music Ministry for 7pm Mass on Sundays
And a bunch of Misc. events inbetween
There are Marian Conferences, Charsimatic Conventions, Spiritual excercises, Prayer groups, Healing services, Adoration, Praise and Worship, etc. etc.

Hope this helps.

[jasJis]

I'm grinning BIG, Matt. You don't have to give up ANY of the 4 things you posted.
1.) Ministry to Teach - There are lot's of lay ministers within the organization of parishes. A lot depends upon the size of the Parish. I know you live in England, so I don't have first hand knowledge of the Catholic Parishes there, but I do know a number of American Catholics that were there in the Lay Teacher role very recently. I see Lay Teachers in my parish. The Church does need people with your calling.
2.) Small Groups - Here in my Diocese, we call them Small Christian Communities. All Diocese have them. We also have Guilds, Men's Clubs, lay groups, etc. If you don't join or participate, you don't know they're there. I've made that mistake.
3.) Fellowship in the Local Church - See above two. I used to think the same thing about my parish. My closest friends are Prots. When my renewal of my Christian journey eventually led me back to the Catholic Church, I was determined to bring this Prot idea (it's a good one!) to my parish. Stupid me. Once I made the commitment to be involved, I saw that all this was going on. I think it's because Catholics are in-your-face types and leave so much up to the individuals, that it's easy to get lazy and let yourself be isolated. Sometimes becoming isolated is a factor of old age. I know my parish has a Pastoral Committee that's all about temporal works of Mercy and staying in-touch w/ ederly is part of it.
4.) Spontinaity of Worshp - Catholics will debate and argue about what's allowed and disallowed during a Mass, but we have a tremendously rich treasure of Worship. We have all kinds of prayer services that sometimes allow spontinaity, for example, Chrismatic Prayer Services (they aren't a Mass) and Eucharistic Adoration services. The Catholic Church is EXTREMELY rich in types and manners of worship. So much so, it sometimes gets us in trouble. The Mass is the Source and Summit, but we have so much More!

[GuardianoftheSacraments]

My dear beloved brother in christ,
You will never loose anything by becoming Catholic, you will gain rewards beyond the imagenation. The sacraments themselves are graces that flow like sparkling waterfalls out of heaven. I will keep you in my prayers for strength in your descision.
Peace and Blessings
-Guardian-
I'm becoming a priest and think about what I have to give up.... I am willing to sacrafice all to Christ who sacraficed all for me :angel:

[Oik]

Matt, you wouldn't have to give up any of that (though you might have to work hard to start somethings in your Parish).

Spontaneity in worship is just fine. Many saints went to ecstacy in Mass. There are many Charismatic gifts that have been recieved there. One might add that this would be a point of debate, however, what is currently being address is the "encouagrement" of these gifts (cause there are some who would like to force these gifts on others by only creating an atmosphere proper for spontaneity and in hopes of diminishing the traditions of the Church).

There is nothing wrong with spontaneity.


Chels

[Matt Black]

Thanks for the info so far!

I would like to know more as to whether the kind of spontaneity to which I've referred can be introduced in the Mass with its reasonably fixed liturgy (eg extemporare intercessory prayers), or whether we are talking some kind of services or meetings outwith the Mass?

Yours in Christ

Matt

[jasJis]

The Lay spontinaity you seem to be talking about would not be good within the Mass. The Priest is allowed a certain amount of spontinaity in certain areas, such as the Prayers of the Faithful. We do have other types of Prayer services, such as Chrismatic, where it is fostered and encouraged. The Church is wary of abuse of spotinaity within the Mass itself. Otherwise, we'd have a ton of different denominations.

[Oik]

I'm not familiar with extemporary prayer.

As for the Priest, I wouldn't liken him to a worship leader. He is, at times during Mass, persona Christi. I think the type of prayer you are referring is beneficial in maybe a more personal, private gathering outside of the Mass (a prayer group).


Chels

[myduwigd]

One of the things that I wish the CAtholic church would work on more is this spontaneity. One time a woman passed out at church and had to be taken away in an ambulance. I wanted to jump up on the pulpit and get everyone to say a prayer for her right then and there. Instead i sat quietly in my pew whispering prayers.

I wrote this earlier on another link:

"In most of the masses that ive been to i have not been free to worship the way that i want to. which im not gonna start like screaming and hitting people, but the Bible says to worship GOd in dancing and raising hands in the air and i want to be able to do that.
I guess its not completely the type of worship that Im after, I want a church that desperately wants to fall deeper in love with Jesus and generally that type of worship accompanies that type of passion for Jesus' heart. You know those words from Mercy Me's song "I can only imagine"?
"will i dance for you Jesus, or in awe of you be still?"
I think we need to be able to worship Jesus like that now when we go to church. I dont care if you sit in your chair and just bask or get up and dance and cry, as long as your heart is being turned towards GOd and you are free to worship the way that you feel called to"

[Brother Adam]

The neat thing is the Catholic Church has a way about it so that mass is the same everywhere. There are certain rubrics and guidelines followed for the good of all believers. I faced a lot of what you are facing now coming into the Church, having to give up "my way and my will" for "God's way and God's will" both directly and through the Church.

If nothing else you are receiving Christ instead of a piece of bread and a sip of grape juice.

It is worth anything you would have to 'give up', but what you may be trading off in the end can be likened to turning in tattered rags for princely robes.

From one fundamental baptist convert to hopefully another, it is worth it.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Matt Black' date='Mar 14 2005, 11:27 AM'] I'm posting this with the aim that Phatmassers either

(a) disabuse me of my assumptions or

(b) talk me round anyway

1. My ‘ministry’, as I pompously call it. I have in the past both preached, been a pastor of sorts and taught and am not sure there would be ‘room’ for such gifts as I may have in those areas to be used in the Church
2. small groups – called variously housegroups, cell groups, home groups etc. Basically a place where 6-12ish Christians meet to pray for the world, the Church and one another, support, Bible study etc; it also acts as a springboard for mutual support etc through the rest of the week
3. Flowing from the above, the idea of fellowship with the Christians in the local church generally, and I don’t just mean here a quick chat over a coffee after the service, but real, ongoing friendship. One of the things that bothered me in the last year or so of my Catholic grandmother’s life is that, being more or less housebound, she felt unsupported by her Parish. Sure, the priest and communion ministers did their bit, but hardly anyone just ‘dropped round’ to see if she needed anything or just give her a bit of company
4. Spontaneity in worship – with a bit of the charismatic type of Christianity in me, I would miss the kind of worship service when eg: the person leading worship stops in response to a prompt from the Holy Spirit and there’s a bit of extemporary prayer

That’ll do for the moment; I’m sure I can think of more though

Yours in Christ

Matt
. [/quote]
1. Be a deacon. Preach away.
2. Go for it.
3. It's tragic if a person doesn't feel supported, but more often than not it is probably because the person expects everyone to come to them insteading making an effort to get involved. There is always room for growth though. We'd love to hear your ideas. Come on home
4. There is a very strong charasmatic movement in the Church, Franciscan where I am at is very charasmatic. "Praise and Worship" per se doesn't happen at mass (accept some spontanous prayer is allowed during the Great Amen), but you can find it. I can put you in touch with the leaders of the movement here in America if you are interested.

Have you been to mass yet?

Edited March 15, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Cathurian]

Yes Matt, have you been to Mass yet?

The first time I went to one, I was a bit disappointed it wasn't like the Pentecostal services I knew -- no one started jumping around, shouting, spontaneously praising Jesus -- but then I realised that didn't matter as much as I thought it did.

The point was not just fellowship and worship, but to approach *God Himself* in all flesh and divinity. That is just such an awesome, spectacular thing that it doesn't surprise me it is carried out with such quiet reverence.

It's certainly not boring! But, if after attending Mass for a good while, you still feel as if a more charismatic style of worship would help you be closer to God, try what the other people in the thread said.

Peace and God bless! Prayers for you!

[God Conquers]

I actively do all four things, and, in fact those are things which every Christian SHOULD be doing.

1- Teach Catechesis. Offer your speaking abilities for RCIA, or other local Catholic events.

2- PLEASE start a bible study and prayer group! God knows we need more of them.

3- Christian fellowship is one of four main pillars of the Christian life... go for it.

4- Praise and worship it up, let the Spirit lead you. You can even find beautiful and orthodox Charismatic masses.

[Archangel]

You will gain more than you will lose.

John 6:54 "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day."