The Interpretation of Scripture

[LittleLes]

Hi CAM,

Thank you for acknowledging that I "am soooooooopredictably (correct)!

LittleLes

[Archangel]

Hey, I found some more info about Ebionites in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

The growth of heresy, like the growth of plants, depends on surrounding influences, even more than on its vital force. Philosophies, religious ideals and aspirations, social and economic conditions, are brought into contact with revealed truth, and from the impact result both new affirmations and new negations of the traditional doctrine. The first requisite for success is a forceful man, not necessarily of great intellect and learning, but of strong will and daring action. Such were the men who in all ages have given their names to new sects. The second requisite is accommodation of the new doctrine to the contemporary mentality, to social and political conditions. The last, but by no means the least, is the support of secular rulers. A strong man in touch with his time, and supported by material force, may deform the existing religion and build up a new heretical sect. Modernism fails to combine into a body separate from the Church because it lacks an acknowledged leader, because it appeals to only a small minority of contemporary minds, namely, to a small number who are dissatisfied with the Church as she now is, and because no secular power lends it support. For the same reason, and proportionately, a thousand small sects have failed, whose names still encumber the pages of church history, but whose tenets interest only a few students, and whose adherents are nowhere. [b]Such were, in the Apostolic Age, the Judeo-Christians, Judeo-Gnostics, Nicolaites, Docetae, Cerinthians, Ebionites, Nazarenes, followed, in the next two centuries, by a variety of Syrian and Alexandrian Gnostics, by Ophites, Marcionites, Encratites, Montanists, Manichaeans, and others.[/b] All the early Eastern sects fed on the fanciful speculations so dear to the Eastern mind, but, lacking the support of temporal power, they disappeared under the anathemas of the guardians of the depositum fidei.[/b]

[LittleLes]

Yes indeed. The second century saw the development of the claims of heresy, applied to anything that the people then in control did not agree with.

But just after the death of Jesus in the early first century, no such claims were made, and certainly not against the members of the Jerusalem community, Jesus' immediate disciples.

LittleLes

[Archangel]

Why didn't any of these sects survive if they supposedly contained the "truth" or the "way"?

[Cam42]

Littleles,

You gotta be kidding right? Seriously.....

[quote]Such were, in the Apostolic Age, the Judeo-Christians, Judeo-Gnostics, Nicolaites, Docetae, Cerinthians, Ebionites, Nazarenes, followed, in the next two centuries, by a variety of Syrian and Alexandrian Gnostics, by Ophites, Marcionites, Encratites, Montanists, Manichaeans, and others.[/quote]

That means that they were put down in the first century and then others came after them. Notice that the Ebionites who are listed separate from the Nazarenes, nevertheless heretical were put down FIRST....then the others Gnostics, etc....were put down next.

It is a novel idea called reading. Why were they put down? Because they had no support. Why did they have no support, because they were wrong. They were anathema. They did not contain the truth. They were in error. It has been proven. More than once.

Cam

[LittleLes]

Let's review the history of the first disciples of Jesus.

1. Following the Ascension,Jesus apostles and some disciples gathered in Jerusalem in "the upper room."

2. Acts reports the "descent of the Spirit" after which they began to preach the "good news."

3. They remained observant Jews meeting every day in the Temple.

4. They developed a following and were initially tolerated by the Jewish leaders as one of many competing sects within orthodox Judaism.

5. James, the brother of Jesus was their leader. However he was put to death in 62 A.D. and succeeded by Simon, either the brother or the cousin of Jesus.

6. In 70 A.D. the Romans under Titus destroyed the Temple and much of Jerusalem resulting in a Jewish migration. This was the Diaspora, and the loyal (Christian) Jews were similarly dispersed. Babylon in the Euphrates remained a Jewish center and saw the rise of Rabbinic Judaism.

7. In 130 A.D. the Jews revolted against Rome and the remaining early Christian community was dispersed along with most of the remainder of the Jews .

8. What remained were various outlying Christian communities, the one in Rome growing to dominance, although there were a number of various other Pauline and Gnostic Christian communities as well. Some small Ebionite communities existed as late as the fourth century, but they were insignificant.

9. In the second century there were a variety of doctrines, some claiming Jesus was divine some claiming not (followers of Arius). The Council of Nicea, convened by Constantine in 325, was the first to really organize Christianity into more or less an "in group" and an "out group" who came to be labeled heretics. Gnostic Christianity was eventually labeled as heretic as well, leaving only the Pauline form which we have today.

Why didn't any of these groups survive if they had the "truth,"? Archangel asks. The luck of the draw. Today there are more members of Islam than Catholics and that religion is growing much faster. Statistically, the number of Catholics is not even keeping up with the world's population growth. Does this demonstrate Islam's "truth"????


LittleLes

[Archangel]

How many members are there in Islam?

How many in the Catholic Church?

And how many Ebionites?

[Cam42]

The post is too long, I can't possbily read it all...therefore I will only say this....brother Littleles, you are wrong. I know it. I know it because your post is too long. I understand scripture. The reason I know it.....well, I understand scripture and you can't possibly be right.

Here are my reasons....I can't provide documentation, but here they are are you ready? Oh, did you know that the Ebionites were kewl?

Ok, now the Nazarenes were in Jerusalem. They were led by the brother of Jesus, did you know that? Get out!!!! Seriously. James was his brother....it says so. I am serious. OK.

Now what was I saying....oh yeah I posted something about the Ebionites. They weren't really heretics. Although Ireneaus says they are. Look. I told you they were ok.

That is exactly how you sound.

--------------

1. Pentecost.
2. Pentecost.
3. The Jewish converts did. The Gentiles were not held to the same standards.
4. According to some...but where is the proof.
5. There is that pesky brother of Jesus again, brother Littleles.
6. The Romans were ruthless weren't they.
7. Masada.
8. Insignificant, because they were heretical. They were anathema.
9. Yes, the hokey pokey Council.


[quote]Why didn't any of these groups survive if they had the "truth,"? [/quote]

Because they didn't hold the truth. They were heretics. They never held to authentic Christianity. That is why St. Paul was witnessing to them (I discussed this earlier).

[quote]Today there are more members of Islam than Catholics and that religion is growing much faster. Statistically, the number of Catholics is not even keeping up with the world's population growth. Does this demonstrate Islam's "truth"????[/quote]

What does this have to do with Interpretation of scripture? NOTHING. It is a shotgun attempt. Muslims hold a precept of the truth insofar as they recognize the same God as we do. (cf. [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#841"]CCC 841[/url]) However, that is as far as the truth of their sect goes.

Nice try...but you again have missed the mark.

brother Cam

[Jaime]

[quote].I can't provide documentation, but here they are are you ready? Oh, did you know that the Ebionites were kewl?[/quote]

Oh No you di'ent!!

Littless, You just got served baby!

[Cam42]

chest bump

[LittleLes]

Hi Archangel,

Look up the number of Catholics and the number of Muslims at a population statistic site on the web. Also, note the relative growth rate or rate of decline as compared with the worlds population growth.

But as of mid 2003:

Total Roman Catholics 1,092,853,000
Total Muslims 1,254,222,000

But the population of Catholics and Christians in general is decreasing relative to the worlds population, while the number of Muslims is increasing.

The Ebionite movement was pretty much dispersed , and its members joined other Christian groups after the destruction of Jerusalem. I'd already explained this earlier.

LittleLes

[jasJis]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Mar 21 2005, 08:38 AM'] Hi Archangel,

Look up the number of Catholics and the number of Muslims at a population statistic site on the web. Also, note the relative growth rate or rate of decline as compared with the worlds population growth.

But as of mid 2003:

Total Roman Catholics 1,092,853,000
Total Muslims 1,254,222,000

But the population of Catholics and Christians in general is decreasing relative to the worlds population, while the number of Muslims is increasing.

The Ebionite movement was pretty much dispersed , and its members joined other Christian groups after the destruction of Jerusalem. I'd already explained this earlier.

LittleLes [/quote]
How about some numerical statistics please. It's been shown your ancedotal 'evidence' is not accepted by anyone. How about the point I made that you are comparing one Christian Denomination to all Muslims. How about all Muslims to all Christians?

[LittleLes]

Please note, Jas, that I listed numbers, not antedotal evidence. You can find the numbers in world population studies even on-line.

And I believe it was Archangel who originally asked how many members there were in the Catholic church and how many members there were in Islam.

I answered his precise question. QUD.

LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote]And I believe it was Archangel who originally asked how many members there were in the Catholic church and how many members there were in Islam.[/quote]

Who cares? It really doesn't have anything to do with this conversation. All your stats mean is that there are at least 1,254,222,000 who do not adhere to the truth.

It is often said, "Can 1,000,000,000 people be wrong?" My answer: Frequently.

Thanks for defining what we need to do insofar as conversion numbers. You are a pal. We Catholics will get on that post haste.

Cam

Edited March 22, 2005 by Cam42

[Archangel]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Mar 21 2005, 04:38 AM']Hi Archangel,

Look up the number of Catholics and the number of Muslims at a population statistic site on the web. Also, note the relative growth rate or rate of decline as compared with the worlds population growth.

But as of mid 2003:

Total Roman Catholics 1,092,853,000
Total Muslims              1,254,222,000

But the population of Catholics and Christians in general is decreasing relative to the worlds population, while the number of Muslims is increasing.

The Ebionite movement was pretty much dispersed , and its members joined other Christian groups after the destruction of Jerusalem. I'd already explained this earlier.

LittleLes[/quote]
I don't know wher you get your information, but I found the following at adherents.com

Catholic Church - 1,050,000,000
Sunni Islam - 900,000,000

Close, but the Catholic Church is still larger.

We can say for the Ebionites: If you can't beat, join 'em