Why did god create man?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 15 2005, 03:17 PM'] Why does god need us to know him, does that make him happy? Why must we love, what is essentially infinite love? Cant god have enough love on his own, being love itself. So god is real lonely and needs us to be with him in heaven? [/quote]
You have failed to acknowledge the point that has been repeated throughout this discussion: God did not create out of need or lack!

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 15 2005, 04:24 PM'] You have failed to acknowledge the point that has been repeated throughout this discussion: God did not create out of need or lack! [/quote]
I know thats your statement, but I hear contradicting statements. And after getting varying answers I would disgree with your assesment.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 15 2005, 04:31 PM'] I know thats your statement, but I hear contradicting statements. And after getting varying answers I would disgree with your assesment. [/quote]
I am a little slow today, please explain to me what contradicts this and why. Please, I would like to help reconcile the contradiction.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 15 2005, 06:38 PM'] I am a little slow today, please explain to me what contradicts this and why. Please, I would like to help reconcile the contradiction. [/quote]
Here are the reasons given on this tread on why god made man:

Created us because he desires to be glorified, worshiped, honored and praised.
Created us as the epitome of the Divine Mercy
Created us for a chance to enjoy direct mystical union with him
Created us because it was good.
Created us to know Him, to love Him, to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven


Now here is the problem I have with some of these. Now I am told that there was nothing in it for god to make us. But to glorify god, worship and praise him contradicts that statement. This statement suggest that god made us for the purpose of exhalting him. To honor the power that he is. It is a vain reason to create a life. Its like you having a child and having it made to glorify you, worship you and tell you how good you are.

I have been told that I cannot undestand the mind of god, being a limited human. How can I comprehend the infinite mind of god? I would say, that no one can. Because the statement itself makes it clear that the mind of god is beyond that , which a human could understand, excluding those even claiming to understand it.

Another thing I dont understand is why god made us to love him when he is infinite love? Why make us to love him when he is the pure embodiment of love? What is the desire or purpose for him to have us love him? I know every parent wants their child to love them. But to make your child for the sole purpose of loving you, is selfish.

It just points to me to the human origins of the bible.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 16 2005, 01:56 PM']
Created us because he desires to be glorified, worshiped, honored and praised.
[/quote]
I do not see where anyone said that it was out of desire. plese forgive if I missed someone who stated that. God does not desire anything for He Himself is complete in Himself.

[quote]But to glorify god, worship and praise him contradicts that statement. This statement suggest that god made us for the purpose of exhalting him. To honor the power that he is. It is a vain reason to create a life. Its like you having a child and having it made to glorify you, worship you and tell you how good you are.[/quote]

That statement can only have that vauge connotation if you bring some prejudgment to the statement. I think that you are placing emphasis on the wrong thing. We were created out of the love that He has for us. In return we love Him back as far as human love can go because he did not create out of need, but because He (as you said) is love. In doing so we glorigy Him because He has created us from His sheer mercy and love. We show this glorification in serving Him because He is our creator and all good. So one can see that He loved us from all eternity (He is transcendant of time, that is another thread), and that is He created us. We recongize the He did not have to create us, but did out of love, so we love him in return. Because we realize our creaturehood and is creatorness we glorify Him through our servitude. It is important to realize which came first and what flows from what. He does not get anything out of the deal for He is complete in self, and perfect. (See St. Thomas)


[quote]I would say, that no one can. Because the statement itself makes it clear that the mind of god is beyond that , which a human could understand, excluding those even claiming to understand it.
[/quote]

We do not claim to know the mind of God. We are simply stating what has been revealed to us through Scripture, Tradition, and events. I know the issue you have with that, but I do not think that you can attack religous pretenses and attempt to remain completly outside of them yourself. If you cannot get the basics down I cannot expect you to understand something deeper. Not a personal attack just putting the horse and the cart in the correct order. This is a much larger topic abot salvation history and God's revelation to man.

[quote]Another thing I dont understand is why god made us to love him when he is infinite love? Why make us to love him when he is the pure embodiment of love? What is the desire or purpose for him to have us love him? I know every parent wants their child to love them. But to make your child for the sole purpose of loving you, is selfish. [/quote]

Ok mis-statements (probably due to presumptions of agreed stancs) in the thread. God did not and does not [i]make[/i] us love Him. But man was created to be [i]able to[/i] love Him. Slight but imporant distinction. I know what earlier threads say but I am attempting to make it coherent. They were stated to Catholics who have a Catholic stance coming in. God is love. Granted. That is why He created, out of love. Love is a verb that involves sharing of self. God loves so much that He created because it simply apart of His being. Not out of need. They are different things. The Trinity is an example of this. God's essence is to love, to create, to share. So the Trinity comes into being. An eternal action of self-giving and recieving. It really is quite a beautiful thing if you can get past the doubt the world instills. So we were created to be able to love Him, not out of his need of love or lack of, but that is because it is who God is. A being that shares of Himself with others and expresses this in creation. Not a need. I am sorry for the long post, let me know if that helps any.

God's peace to you Mel,

[Melchisedec]

Paphnutius,

I really do appreciate that you and Myles have taken the extra bit of time to discuss this with me. Thanks.

[Paphnutius]

There is no one that is not worth the time.

[argent_paladin]

One of the best earthly analogies (none are totally adequate) is the question "Why do parents desire to have children?"

They might answer that they need them, to love them, etc. That may all be true.
But, ideally, parents will desire to pro-create out of their love for one another and that love begets more love. Ideally parents will not desire children out of selfish desires but out of love.

Or one could contemplate why an artist creates. One can always frame it as desire but that shows the limitations of our languages. Yes, in a way, an artist creates out of a desire to create, but that begs the question. Where does this desire come from? It comes from the person being an artist. God is fullness of being, perfect. The Creator created because he is a Creator and that is what a Creator does.

[Paphnutius]

Yes. Like I said, it is in His being to create and to love. A type of "overflow", but not like the overflow of Neo-platonism's emination of the nous.

[kdewolf2]

God is infinitely perfect.

Therefore, He does not need us to glorify Him, worship Him, praise Him, or love Him.

However, He is infinitely worthy of our absolute, heartfelt devotion, nonetheless.

So, why did He create us in the first place?

Brilliant minds have pondered that question for millennia, and so far there has never been any single explanation that totally and adequate explains it.

After all, how can human minds hope to understand the infinite?

Suppose God created us simply to fulfill His own purposes, whatever they may be, and we can never totally understand them because His mind infinitely exceeds our own intellectual capacity?

Or, maybe God created us just because He could.

Maybe there is no why.

After all, why does God exist? There is no reason, because God is self-existent. He just IS. So, maybe, in the same, He just creates, because He is full of life and love and being, and it just overflows in the act of creation. It is sheer gratuitousness.

Maybe we don't need a why. Maybe we just need to realize that God loves us, and that is all.

[mamasboy1210]

Mel do me a favor and have some faith. You seem to be a very depressed person poking at christian belief. My prayers are with you.
.

[Paphnutius]

He was just asking some questions about why we think God created man. He wasnt really poking so much as looking for a solid, coherent answer.

[yiannii]

I must say I have a problem grasping this concept of why God created man. I just cannot get a hold of why He would do this seeing He doen't need to.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Mar 16 2005, 02:23 PM'] We were created out of the love that He has for us. In return we love Him back as far as human love can go because He did not create out of need, but because He (as you said) is love.

That is why He created, out of love. Love is a verb that involves sharing of self. God loves so much that He created because it simply apart of His being. Not out of need. They are different things. So we were created to be able to love Him, not out of his need of love or lack of, but that is because it is who God is. A being that shares of Himself with others and expresses this in creation. Not a need. [/quote]
Let me know if this makes sense, maybe I can help clear it up.

[yiannii]

I'm confused... who wrote this:

[quote]We were created out of the love that He has for us. In return we love Him back as far as human love can go because He did not create out of need, but because He (as you said) is love.

That is why He created, out of love. Love is a verb that involves sharing of self. God loves so much that He created because it simply apart of His being. Not out of need. They are different things. So we were created to be able to love Him, not out of his need of love or lack of, but that is because it is who God is. A being that shares of Himself with others and expresses this in creation. Not a need. [/quote]