Why did god create man?

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Melchisedec' date='Mar 10 2005, 01:58 PM'] Than can anyone answer the question on why does a god need to be glorified? What does glorifying god do for god? [/quote]
God does not [i]need[/i] to be glorified. As Myles said, He is completly self-glorified and [b]complete[/b] in his trinity. God created in wisdom and love, not out of necessity. We are here because God wants it. We need to look at how God works to gain some clarity. God is Trinity, it is in His nature to create, share, and love. He created humans out of love, and yes to give Him glory. It is not a matter of God's needing glory, for that is found in Himself (i.e.: the Trinity), but a matter of God loving creation so much. You understanding of glory is to shower one with praises. That is not the understanding of Glory that we have. We understand Glory as following God's will. We were created with a free will, that does not mean that we were created to do whatever we want. Choosing sin or evil is [b]never[/b] a freeing act or choice. Sin is always limiting. So we are free to choose God. It is not a demand, but a freedom to love Him in return. That is the glory that we were created to give. Not a shower of "I love you's" (those are nice and proper dont get me wrong), but to follow the Divine Will with the love and self-giving as he showed us.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I still dont understand this. So he created us not for him, but for the sake of having a creation enjoy life? So god didnt make his creations for him, but for the creation itself. The problem I see is that if there is nothing in it for god. Than disobeying god means nothing. Because he had nothing to gain or lose from it. Since he had nothing that benefitted him from the action of creating humans. If god is upset if you do not follow his plan, than how can he be happy when humans do follow the plan, if there is nothing in it for him or pleasure derived? [/quote]

Thats the whole point my friend. As Paphnutius explained God does not create the world for neccessity. God's creation stands out as unique. Whereas a man and a woman are more or less biologically or at least psychologically drawn to one another as God designed it, God was not bound to make anything. He made the Universe so that the beings in it could enjoy Him. There is nothing in it for Him. That is what the Cross is all about. That is what makes Christianity, at least in its apostolic and Catholic form, so radically different from other monotheist systems. In Jesus Christ we see God revealed as He really is: A lover, who loves so much that He empties himself taking on the form of a servant and learns obidience unto death, death on a cross.

Take two moments to actually think about this my friend. God is so far above human beings by His nature that to describe the ontological difference (difference in being) as being one that is 'far' is incorrect. There really is no adverb for God's being. However, God decided to show His love to mankind by taking on a human nature so that He could die for us. This was completely unneccessary. It would not have been logically impossible for God to forgive man by some other means. However, He didnt. He took on the littleness of our nature and died for us. There was nothing in that for God. He reduced Himself by becoming human there is nothing great about human that could possibly add anything to God. The process of becoming human is a huge condescension on His part. More still is the process of taking on the form of bread and wine every Mass. All of these things dont add anything to God they place him in the form of something far less than He is. Again, there is nothing in it for God.

Its for us.

Unlike in the Jewish or Muslim understandings of God. The Christian God, in the apostolic and Catholic tradition, is the God who has come down to us to love us and continues to do so. He did not create man for His glorification but made man to glorify Him because He knew we would love it. Simply knowing God makes me want to priase Him because what He has done for me in allowing me to exist is beyond belief. There is no reason why God should've made the cosmos, even less for why He should sustain it. Yet both are His handiwork and more He gives me the chance to unite myself to Him. He gives an unneccessary, changeable, finite being the chance to be bonded to His infinite essence by grace. Knowing what I am, I am struck to know what God has done for me, because there is nothing compelling Him to do it. He acts out of benevolence and love towards me. Fulfilling me, drawing me into Himself. Listen to what St Basil the Great has to say:

[quote]"From the Spirit comes foreknowledge of the future, understanding of the mysteries of faith, insight into the hidden meaning of Scripture, and other special gifts. Through the Spirit we become citizens of heaven, we are admitted to the company of the angels, we enter into eternal happiness, and abide in God. Through the Spirit we acquire a likeness to God; indeed, we attain what is beyond our most sublime aspirations-we become God."[/quote]

We become God...not in substance but by being as one with Him in the Divine life being breathed into our souls by sacramental grace. As St Peter puts it, we become partakers in the divine nature. This is all for our benefit not for God's and like I said it hits me like a right hook because I know that I could not exist and God need not have made me. Yet, He has and in doing so He has given me the chance to discover Him and to be loved by Him. To have all my desires and all that I could possibly want satisfied in Him, as He is everything and being infinite is all I could possibly want. Thats the beauty of God as the highest good, He never 'runs out' there is never a limit to His love or how much of Him you can love. You turn your eyes to Him and from then on its all beautiful.

God's love is free, unbound, uncoerced. Free. Once you understand this, you will understand the gem of Christianity and start to appreciate exactly what the Church is and means. The Church is yet just another way that God who needs nothing has reached out to beings who are essential nothing (can be killed in a thousand ways and have a 70-120 year lifespan) to give them everything: Sacramental grace is yet another means that God gives us Himself and the best thing is we dont have to do anything except let ourselves be loved. It does not involve any complicated meditation techniques or auto suggestion, just a realisation and a willingess to come to the table of the Lord. He gives grace freely all we have to do is unharden our hearts and we would see it all.

His love is completely free. We dont earn it. We simply abide in it. Grace was won for us by the God-Man and is given to us by Him freely. Because of that we live under grace not under law because our fulfilment of the law becomes an act in response to God's love (hence my signature) thus the closer we draw to God the easier it becomes to be good and the more we hate sin for fear we might be torn from the joy of God's loving warmth.

Like I said if you can buy some of the books of the 16th century Spanish mystics because they are very good at explaining these things.

God Bless you
Myles

[Paphnutius]

Far more eloquently put that I ever could have Myles. Once again Kudos. Your love for God and for faith is quite distinguishable!

[PaxVobis]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 10 2005, 12:42 PM'] I'd say that's fairly accurate.  For want, not need.  We are also free to find pleasure outside of God.  Since God is all Good, that pleasure is only temporary. [/quote]
God did not create for want or need. God is perfection. Want implies imperfection as well as need. It was done out of pure love.


Also, you said htat we are free to find pleasure outside of God. The only good for humans is that which comes from God. If our actions are not actions which turn us towards God, then they are not good, but mistaken as good... I.E Sin.

Peace,
Tony

I'm sure that this was already said.. but I didn't want to read all the posts.

Edited March 11, 2005 by PaxVobis

[Antonius]

Amen, Myles. You have been blessed.

[Winchester]

God needed a reason to make alcoholic beverages and the angels were a bunch of beaver dam tee totallers

[jasJis]

[quote name='PaxVobis' date='Mar 10 2005, 08:23 PM'] God did not create for want or need. God is perfection. Want implies imperfection as well as need. It was done out of pure love.


Also, you said htat we are free to find pleasure outside of God. The only good for humans is that which comes from God. If our actions are not actions which turn us towards God, then they are not good, but mistaken as good... I.E Sin.

Peace,
Tony

I'm sure that this was already said.. but I didn't want to read all the posts. [/quote]
PaxVobis,
Thanks for the clarification to other for what I wrote.

Contrasting want as opposed to need in the same sentence shows that they are opposite, thus the word want is defined as an act of will, not the 'lack or need of something'.

Yes. We are free to find pleasure outside of God. It's free-will. But what humans identify as pleasure is temporal and short lived and thus we reject eternal pleasure and the act is sin. Jesus himself was tempted by Satan to have the pleasure of the world worshiping Jesus if Jesus but worshipped Satan. Jesus was free to make that choice.

[Cam42]

[quote]Why did god create man? Whats the purpose of mans existence?[/quote]

God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven. That answers the first.

To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart. That answers the second.

It really isn't all that hard. In our complex mind, we forget that God is simple. Think of it as a child would think of it and most often, one will come closest to understanding the mind of God. To start quantifing and postulating, one will start moving away from only to need to move back.

Cam

[PaxVobis]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 11 2005, 07:18 AM'] PaxVobis,
Thanks for the clarification to other for what I wrote.

Contrasting want as opposed to need in the same sentence shows that they are opposite, thus the word want is defined as an act of will, not the 'lack or need of something'.

Yes. We are free to find pleasure outside of God. It's free-will. But what humans identify as pleasure is temporal and short lived and thus we reject eternal pleasure and the act is sin. Jesus himself was tempted by Satan to have the pleasure of the world worshiping Jesus if Jesus but worshipped Satan. Jesus was free to make that choice. [/quote]
Yes, i see what you mean now, But, I also think it is important that we remember that pleasure is only a side effect of happiness. Pleasure is not necessarily good.

When we seek God we must do it with a total giving up of ourselves. That means that we are not seeking because of pleasure, or for happiness for that matter. But that we are doing it for love of God. And when we enter into that relationship (i.e the divine vision) we are, as a consequence, happy.

In the Peace of Christ,
Tony

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 11 2005, 07:18 AM'] PaxVobis,
Thanks for the clarification to other for what I wrote.

Contrasting want as opposed to need in the same sentence shows that they are opposite, thus the word want is defined as an act of will, not the 'lack or need of something'.

Yes. We are free to find pleasure outside of God. It's free-will. But what humans identify as pleasure is temporal and short lived and thus we reject eternal pleasure and the act is sin. Jesus himself was tempted by Satan to have the pleasure of the world worshiping Jesus if Jesus but worshipped Satan. Jesus was free to make that choice. [/quote]
I think it should be mentioned that although one is free to attempt to find pleasure outside of God, one will not find true pleasure. When one turns their eyes from God, all one can find is a dark dismal world devoid of true pleasure.

[argent_paladin]

It used to be that every 8-year-old catholic knew the answer to your question. It is the very first part of the Baltimore Catechism.

6. Q. Why did God make you?

A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to
be happy with Him for ever in heaven.


[url="http://www.catholic.net/teaching_the_faith/template_article.phtml?channel_id=14&article_id=737#RTFToC2"]http://www.catholic.net/teaching_the_faith..._id=737#RTFToC2[/url]

Cam42 gets a gold star for catechism!!

[Fixxxer]

God created man so woman could be created. No man, no rib for the woman.

[musturde]

[quote name='Fixxxer' date='Mar 11 2005, 06:45 PM'] God created man so woman could be created. No man, no rib for the woman.






[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote]Cam42 gets a gold star for catechism!! [/quote]

Thanks...I do what I can....I thought everyone knew that. LOL!!!

Cam

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Mar 11 2005, 06:31 PM']
A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to
be happy with Him for ever in heaven.
[/quote]
Why does god need us to know him, does that make him happy? Why must we love, what is essentially infinite love? Cant god have enough love on his own, being love itself. So god is real lonely and needs us to be with him in heaven?