God and Logic

[MichaelFilo]

An issue came up, does God have to work within logic? Relevant issues;

1) God created everything, so he created logic, therefore he can work in and outside of it.

2) The Trinity isn't logical.

3) God can do everything, and that means make a rock that is too heavy for Him to carry and yet still have nothing he can't do. If he couldn't, then he obviously couldn't do everything; so therefore God must be able to work outside of logic.

God bless,
Mikey

[Myles Domini]

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102500.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/102500.htm[/url]

St Thomas Aquinas deals with the 'power of God'

As for the Trinity although I can understand what you're trying to achieve, the Trinity itself is mystery and understanding how God came about is beyond human conception. Whether or not the Trinity is logical is not ours to decide, to make such a judgement on God's being would demand that we understood how God's being came about. The Trinity may be perfectly logical but we have no idea how to judge that because we dont understand the fundamental being of things and cannot, at least, not to the extent that God does. To do that we would have to be God. To understand God's essence one would have to be part of that essence.

[MichaelFilo]

I hate to go up against Thomas, he was a powerhouse, but he was known to be wrong as well.

The whole premise of the thing is that God must work within logic. It seems that it is a limit to God's power to say that He cannot work outside of logic. It is one thing to say God doesn't work outside of it, and another thing entirely to say He doesn't.

God bless,
Mikey

Edited March 10, 2005 by MichaelFilo

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 9 2005, 11:27 PM'] I hate to go up against Thomas, he was a powerhouse, but he was known to be wrong as well.

The whole premise of the thing is that God must work within logic.  It seems that it is a limit to God's power to say that He cannot work outside of logic. It is one thing to say God doesn't work outside of it, and another thing entirely to say He doesn't.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Once again here there is a distinction to be made. When one says that God is "all-powerful" or "omnipotent", whichever your prefer, means that He is able to do [i]all that can be done[/i]. It would be the same as asking if God can make 3+4=8. It cannot be done, so God cannot change it. Another thing to point out that logic is something that was created by man to describe causal relations in the world to himself. Your senses may be decieve you (see Augustine), therefore our logic may be (I would say is for no one is omniscient) flawed. Do not rely on human knowledge or reasoning to try to constrict God to working within our understanding. God is personal, but also transcendant. He transcends any category we can put Him in. As humans we can have no exhaustive language to speak of Him. So to say that God is all-powerful means that God can do all that can be done. This excludes such things as the rock example.

Edited March 10, 2005 by Paphnutius

[track2004]

Personally, I think that God would have to work within Logic 99% of the time. We may not fully understand Divine Logic, which is entirely possible. I say 99% because as mentioned God had to invent Logic just like He thought up gravity, chemistry, calculus and quantum physics. The entire point of having these things is so that we can function in a steady world. Logic allows us to make deduction, make reasonable decisions, and discover more about our world. They are all similar to rules in a game. It isn't a game with out the rules and although it somewhat limits what can happen it allows the game to work. Some rules can be bent, some broken (The Matrix?), but for the most part they remain so that the game exists.

I don't think God [i]always[/i] follows the rules (Jesus walked on water; miracles; the like), but these thing have to remain the exception because otherwise we lose the rule.

[Paphnutius]

Sorry I did not tie in the point about the Trinity. As mentioned humans have no exhaustive knowledge of God. The Trinity is a mystery and because man does not understand it does not make it illogical. It simply means that man cannot understand it. It is important not to try to limit God (uncreated infinite creator), but rather to acknowledge the limits of humans (created finite beings).

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='track2004' date='Mar 10 2005, 12:20 AM'] Personally, I think that God would have to work within Logic 99% of the time. We may not fully understand Divine Logic, which is entirely possible. I say 99% because as mentioned God had to invent Logic just like He thought up gravity, chemistry, calculus and quantum physics. The entire point of having these things is so that we can function in a steady world. Logic allows us to make deduction, make reasonable decisions, and discover more about our world. They are all similar to rules in a game. It isn't a game with out the rules and although it somewhat limits what can happen it allows the game to work. Some rules can be bent, some broken (The Matrix?), but for the most part they remain so that the game exists.

I don't think God [i]always[/i] follows the rules (Jesus walked on water; miracles; the like), but these thing have to remain the exception because otherwise we lose the rule. [/quote]
The only thing that I would change about that is the fact that God "thought up" such physical rules. God is the basis of all reality. I find it hard to concieve that He sat down and thought up such things, because this seperates His thoughts from Himself. This cannot be for God is simple and one. Every created thing reveals something about God. I find that Augustine and Aquinas should be referenced here.

[track2004]

You're right, but 'thought up' is just sooo much easier to say. All of the aforementioned things do reveal parts of God's all knowing being.

[Paphnutius]

Yeah i agree with you on the easier to say part, but my phil prof would rip me a new one...

[Archangel]

Regarding the heavy rock scenario, I found a plausible explanation provided by an atheist on his website.

Quick Word: Atheists should not ask the heavy rock question about a god or God

When I first started discussing the integrity of the god-concept held by Christians with my Christian friends and Christians on the Internet, I often brought up a point that seems very popular among atheists. However, it occurred to me one day that my point had no merit. The point I would bring up would be that of the heavy rock dilemma. If God is omnipotent, can He create a rock that even He cannot lift? At first it seems like a damning question, but it is not. An atheist may see this question as forming a paradox, but I assert that paradox is false. The perceived paradox is understood in the following manner: if God is all powerful he can do anything; yet, if God can create a rock that he cannot lift, he would no longer be all powerful. The paradox is false, because an important question that is hidden in the heavy rock query is overlooked.

[b]When asked if God can create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it, the real question is can God strip himself of His omnipotence. The answer to that is simple: yes, He can. If God is all-powerful, then it would necessary that He possess the ability to strip Himself of that omnipotence. Whatever the method God uses to strip Himself of His omnipotence would be His prerogative. If God is omnipotence He has the ability to take away His own omnipotence. That is, if God is omnipotent, God has the ability to create a rock (or grain of sand) that He cannot lift, forfeiting his absolute power. If not for the rock question being a fallacy of asking a pointless question, I highly recommend my fellow atheists to avoid asking it for the reason I’ve discussed. It is essential that we remove arguments from our minds that are not intellectually honest or sound, if we are to expect our Christian (and other theist) friends to do the same when we are sharing ideas with one another.[/b]

When an atheist asks whether or not God can create a rock that He cannot lift, he is doing so with the presupposition that the theist believes God (or his god) cannot lose His omnipotence. That presupposition is fallacious in and of itself--placing the heavy rock dilemma in the same class as the question asked of atheists: if there is no god, where did existence come from? Which presupposes that existence has or needs a creator.

[Paphnutius]

I would disagree with the athiest's stance. God cannot remove his omnipotence. It is part of the essence of God. As Aquinas proved the essnece and existence of God cannot be seperated from eachother for God is pure actuality and nothing in potency (see five ways). If God were even able to remove his omnipotence He would cease to be God. I still think the point lies in the fact that God can do all things that can be done. So the answer is no rock is too heavy for God to lift. The rock would have to be infintently heavy and large. It must be infinite in all aspects of form and matter as God is. Such things apply only to God, however. And for all practical purposes this is kinda moot for God is purely spiritual and nothing corporal.

[Archangel]

Interesting ...

Instead of making something infinite to match (or surpass) Himself, is God all-powerful enough to make Himself finite?

[jasJis]

God is not restricted by anything. It is not logical that the dead shall rise. We are limited by our understanding, so our scope of logic is limited.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Mar 10 2005, 07:46 AM'] God is not restricted by anything. It is not logical that the dead shall rise. We are limited by our understanding, so our scope of logic is limited. [/quote]
So you think it is possible for God to make 3+4=8?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 9 2005, 08:30 PM']An issue came up, does God have to work within logic? Relevant issues;

1) God created everything, so he created logic, therefore he can work in and outside of it.[/quote]
God is not the creator of logic; instead, He is logic. Christ is the eternal Logos (Ratio) made man. Therefore, God works within His nature, and He cannot do anything contrary to His nature, because that which is contrary to His nature simply is not; in other words, that which is contrary to His nature has no real or essential existence.

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 9 2005, 08:30 PM']2)  The Trinity isn't logical.[/quote]
The dogma of the Trinity is not contrary to reason, and so it is not irrational; instead, the dogma of the Trinity is beyond human reason, and thus in relation to man it is meta-rational. As the ancient Fathers would say, [b][i]that[/i][/b] God exists can be known by human reason alone, [i][b]how[/b][/i] God exists (i.e., that He exists tri-hypostatically) can be known only by divine revelation, and [i][b]what[/b][/i] God is cannot be known by man at all. In some sense these three categories (i.e., the [i]that[/i], [i]how[/i], and [i]what[/i] of God's existence) correspond to the three modes of being within the Godhead, that is, to the distinction that exists between the divine energies ([i]energia[/i]), the three divine persons ([i]hypostases[/i]), and the divine essence ([i]ousia[/i]).

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Mar 9 2005, 08:30 PM']3) God can do everything, and that means make a rock that is too heavy for Him to carry and yet still have nothing he can't do. If he couldn't, then he obviously couldn't do everything; so therefore God must be able to work outside of logic.[/quote]
God can do anything that can be done within His nature, but He cannot do that which is contrary to His nature, because that which is contrary to His nature has no essential existence; or to put it another way, that which is contrary to His nature has no being. Moreover, those who ask this question have failed to grasp the true nature of reality, because all that exists, in so far as it exists, exists in God; for as St. Paul said, "In Him we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28]