cmotherofpirl Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 THe gates of heraven were NOT opened until Jesus opened them. Nobody followed Elijah up to check his final destination. THey just assumed it would be heaven. Sheol would have been the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 hmmm but what if he was saved by Christ outside of time, what if Christ let Him into heaven outside of time, the same way it was 4 Mary. i would like to see ECF and CCC documentation on this stuff... it looks interesting. Ash wednesday, u brough up a good point despite CMOM's apparent refutation.. i still think it's up for debate. i wanna see what 2000 years of teaching has taught us about the passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Jn 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 THere is no definitive teaching from the Church Fathers other than they think that Elijah did not enjoy the beatific vision before the Resurrection. St. John Chrysostom From what is written in the OT is appears that most souls went to Sheol, the abode of the dead, about which little is told us except that one in Sheol is cut off from the living and may be in some sort of surreal or dreamlike state. But I would not want to teach anything definitively in this regard, given the dearth of OT evidence. It may be that Elijah, Enoch and certain others of the OT, such as martyrs, were given some anticipated share in the vision of God even prior to the crucifixion, given by grace in anticipation of the saving event. So they would still be saved by Christ but in anticipation, as was grace applied to the Blessed Mother in anticipation to preserve her from original sin. In one sense, the gates of heaven were closed apart from the saving act of our Lord and it appears the bulk of those saved awaited Him in Sheol; but I do not think we can rule out some OT exceptions given an early preview which may have been partial, and only full with the actual saving event on the cross. And as to their bodies, again, most OT figures no doubt corrupted in body after death. But with regards to Elijah and Enoch, I am not inclined to think they enjoyed the full privilege our Blessed Mother enjoys even now (the Catechism describes this as a singular privilege granted Mary) but God knows what grace did in their cases. And we should remember that the grace of Christ was operative long before the crucifixion itself, as is evident in the some of the righteous figures and deeds of the saints of the OT period. Finally, we should note the text of Jn 3:13 which reads: "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man." This would tend to confirm the fact tha Elijah and Enoch, while having some special experience, did not ascend into the fullness of heaven. from EWTN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 lol I just wanted to ask Monica if her eyes were tired yet, it's a semi-unfortunate side affect of asking a question here is everyone will answer and answer completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 B) thanx CMOM... okay Ash Wednesday, the argument is closed and u can now blush all u want B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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