Monica Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 A question; God loved us so much he sent Jesus to come to earth. Jesus lived, suffered, like all human beings, becoming like us in all things but sin. Wouldn't that mean that he was born of a mother tainted by original sin, like we are born of a mother? Also, the Immaculate conception is completely unsriptural. I'm really not trying to Catholic-bash, just learn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Stilll here. Uh... must... stop... reading... Also, the Immaculate conception is completely unsriptural. Actually, the very BEST one could say is that it is not specifically in scripture. But to say it is UNscriptural... Well. Hail Mary FULL of Grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you Among women! If you look up the specific word that the Gospel writer used for FULL of Grace, you'd note that it is unique in all of Scripture. It suggests that Mary was FULL of Grace so much so that ONLY Grace was in her. And it was in the Past PERFECT tense (I believe), signifying that this was the case since her very existance began (at conception). We can also pull parts of Genesis, when God tells Satan, about "the woman" (Mary), I will put enmity between you and HER and her offspring. (sorry, it's a paraphrase for now). Note, the enmity was between BOTH her and Jesus! Not just Jesus! Also, note, this does not make her a deity. We know she is a human. And she was saved by Jesus! How? Well, how was I saved from doing drugs since I have never done them!? Mary was saved from sin even before she could! It was pre-emptive, if you will. Other than that! The Church has taught this for as long as it has existed! Look at what the Church fathers have to say! So, it may not be directly "Scriptural". But it is in no way against Scripture. Ah, and how could I forget. Please find a Catholic source and learn about how Mary actually appeared to a little girl and told her "I am the Immaculate Conception". The littel girl then told the Pope. The littel girl had no idea what "immaculate" or "conception" meant! Okay okay. Now... For real... I'll see ya tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 ... not unscriptural: Luke says that the Angel Gabriel said "Hail Mary, FULL OF GRACE" focus in on the full of grace. blah blah blah if ur translation says "highly favored one". let's go to the original Greek. the greek says "kecharitomene" the verb means "to be highly graced" or "To be highly favored" or "To be filled with grace" or "To be filled with favor" the form the verb is in here means that this has always been true. thus, Gabriel has said "Hail Mary who has always been filled with favor and grace" we loose our grace with God when we sin. Mary must never have sinned. the early Church believed Mary was sinless, and a few apocryphal gospels (gospels not accepted by the Church as inspired but can still tell us what Christians of that time period before the cannonization of the Bible might have believed) go out of their way to show Mary's mom, St. Anne, kept her clean and pure and sheltered her immensely, and then had her consecrated to the Temple where she remained pure. hope that helps :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 jake, ya beat me to it. B) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 First of all, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ in 33AD. THe bible books were compiled in 397 AD by the Church. THe New Testament is composed of writings picked out by the Church Fathers, the successors of the Apostles. THat being said, not everything of the Church is contained IN the bible. The Immaculate Conception means Mary was not stained with original sin. When the Angel greets Mary He calls her Full of Grace"."Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace." Also remember Mary carried God in her womb. She is the Ark, If you read the Old Testament, anything related to the Ark had to be perfect and pure, because nothing impure can stand before God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KennC Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 (edited) Hi Aloysius; the greek says "kecharitomene" the verb means "to be highly graced" or "To be highly favored" or "To be filled with grace" or "To be filled with favor" .... from Scripture Catholic; "kecharitomene" This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14. Peace of Christ, Ken Edited October 31, 2003 by KennC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 grace and favor can both be derived from according to Father Mitch Pacwa but he says it is nearly impossible to separate the two in the ancient languages, grace is God's favor upon someone. Pax Christi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Hi Monica, your question has been answered, but I wanted to say hello, and warmly welcome you among us. Hope you'll like us and will hang around. I just wanted to make a couple of points with which you may be unfamiliar. (Are you a Protestant?) The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament. The Bible was not collected, canonized, and compiled into one book which the Church called 'Ta Biblia' (The Books) until the very end of the fourth and beginning of the fifth century. So the Church is nearly 400 years older than the Bible as we know it. The Catholic Church is not based on the Bible, but on the teachings of the Apostles, who were taught by Jesus Christ. The New Testament is based on the teaching Church, not the other way around. The Church did not write down everything the Apostles taught. Some was written and later became Scripture. Other teachings are preserved in Sacred Apostolic Tradition -- in the Church's liturgy, in other non-canonical writings, and in oral history. Consequently, not everthing Catholics believe is written in the canonized Scriptures, particularly the doctrines concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary. Again, welcome. Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Hi Monica, your question has been answered, but I wanted to say hello, and warmly welcome you among us. Hope you'll like us and will hang around. I just wanted to make a couple of points with which you may be unfamiliar. (Are you a Protestant?) yup! Go to the "Hi i am new" thread to find out more... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Hi Monica, it's me again. Just to add to the comments about Mary being full of grace: God is not limited by time, so please be open to the fact that God may have gone back through time to apply grace to Mary, or He caould have made exceptions. When you read the bible, you will find that there are exceptions to generalities. One example: Paul says somewhere (I'll let the others find the reference for me as a homework assignment, LOL) that "all men are appointed to die once", yet we know that Elijah was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot and Enoch was taken without dying (i.e. assumed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 (edited) Mary was exempted from the stain of original sin not by her own merits, but God's alone. God was her savior, too. If Jesus was Mary's flesh and blood son, why would he allow the vessel to carry his Son, and be his flesh and blood mother in every physical way, yet be tainted with original sin? I always likened it to those being purified of their sins and in heaven... but Mary received such grace outside of our time in order to be the flesh and blood mother of Jesus. I never thought of the chariot though. That is interesting, since it was Jesus who opened the gates of heaven at the resurrection to souls that were previously in captivity.... so how did it come to be that Elijah got that fiery hot rod ride to heaven and was allowed to enter into heaven early? Perhaps God was allowed it to be that way. Just like Mary being purified at conception, rather than when she reached heaven at death (like the rest of us...heeee) Just thinking out loud. :D Edited October 31, 2003 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 In the Old Testament, Mary is prefigured as such things as "a garden enclosed," or a "vessel of gold." In these poetic descriptions, it reveals something of her very special gift, that God preserved her for Himself, for a purpose. The garden was enclosed, so that sin could not enter it...The vessel was pure gold, having no impurity (sin) whatsoever... We don't credit Mary with having some special power to have avoided sin. He simply acknowledge that Jesus Christ, Our Sinless and Perfect Lord, entered the world through a pure vessel... Mary was the ark of the New Covenant. In the Old Testament, God's Presence was in the ark of the covenant. His glory cloud overshadowed the ark of the covenant. In the New Testament, we see the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, and she bearing the physical Presence of God within her. We know that when an ordinary man touched the ark of the covenant, he fell down dead. Mary, too, was untouched by sin, and untouched by man, as she was to bear the Lord. Oh, and I meant to welcome you earlier in Open Mic, but I had to relinquish the computer to a teenager who had homework!!! So, welcome aboard, and I hope you find all that you're looking for here. I have a daughter who is your age who posts here, her name is Ice Princess. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Mary was exempted from the stain of original sin not by her own merits, but God's alone. God was her savior, too. If Jesus was Mary's flesh and blood son, why would he allow the vessel to carry his Son, and be his flesh and blood mother in every physical way, yet be tainted with original sin? I always likened it to those being purified of their sins and in heaven... but Mary received such grace outside of our time in order to be the flesh and blood mother of Jesus. I never thought of the chariot though. That is interesting, since it was Jesus who opened the gates of heaven at the resurrection to souls that were previously in captivity.... so how did it come to be that Elijah got that fiery hot rod ride to heaven and was allowed to enter into heaven early? Perhaps God was allowed it to be that way. Just like Mary being purified at conception, rather than when she reached heaven at death (like the rest of us...heeee) Just thinking out loud. :D Elijah had to wait in the bosum of Abraham like everybody else. He just didn't have to die to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash Wednesday Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 (edited) Elijah had to wait in the bosum of Abraham like everybody else. He just didn't have to die to get there. Ah o.k.! My little chariot musings were off the mark. *blush* *points at Catholic apologists and yells "ditto what they just said!"* *blush* When someone first told me the story about the chariot, I was just totally... floored by the concept. Edited October 31, 2003 by Ash Wednesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Elijah had to wait in the bosum of Abraham like everybody else. He just didn't have to die to get there. I'm not so sure about that....2 Kings 2:11 indicates he was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind. Has this been commented on by church documents or church fathers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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