Infallible, you say?

[Cam42]

Because 7-8-9....get it?!!!!

Cam

P.S. Just passing time until Les addresses my posts.....

Edited March 10, 2005 by Cam42

[Jaime]

[quote]Be sure and remember that 8 goes with 9.[/quote]

Shoot and I was going to ask 9 out... I didn't know she was seeing someone.

Also I wouldn't mind asking out 7 of 9. She was quite the

Hubba hubba

[LittleLes]

No Jamie,

You're taking the minimalist view. But its a good defensive one.

As I originally pointed out, ANY papal teaching that meets Vatican I's criteria for an ex cathedra statement, is an ex cathedra statement. No other criteria are necessary. That's if vatican I is to be believed. It was infallible too, wasn't it?

But realizing that many of these Papal statements are in error, the fall back position are to claim only two.

Little Les

[Jaime]

BTW Cam

That is a stellar signature. I thought I would mention that since your sig is the closest we've come to discussing the topic.

[thessalonian]

Les,

Pick up a copy of Ludwig Ott's "Dogma of Catholicism" (not that he's infallible but it's a pretty good summation of what the Church says is infallible). You have around 370 I think it is decrees from councils and 20 decrees from Popes that fit the title of your thread quite nicely and we will be glad to discuss the merrits of with regard to infallibility. Surely you can find one of the 390 that you think you can use to prove infallibility false, rather than making up your own dogmas and definitions and applying them to other statements catholics and committees made up of Catholics have made. If you keep up with nonsense your just going to continue to look foolish. Next thing you know you will be making statements like "Catholics for choice prove infallibility wrong".

God bless

[thessalonian]

There are only two since Vatican I but before that there were around 18 others. There is some debate over which are stricty infallible decrees by popes because a few of them were decreed by councils beforehand. But they seem to fit the critera so it is only a theological debate and not a real debate over the truth or error of particular statements.

Blessings

[Jaime]

[quote]You're taking the minimalist view. But its a good defensive one.[/quote]

Noooo I'm taking the correct and factual view. You are simply wrong. There are several ways for something to be declared infallible. You are associating documents (that aren't infallible) with the criteria of ex cathedra.

It doesn't work that way. I've said it. Camster's said it. Everyone else has said it.

There are two (2) statements that are ex cathedra. that's it.

I think you want to discuss infallibility in general. Fine we'll stay off topic. But you may want to bring up an infallible statement that you want to discuss. [b]Which has yet to happen[/b]

Otherwise we can continue with six degrees of Kevin Bacon.

[thessalonian]

Les and others

I will give you one opening Les. Many Catholics make the mistake of believing that because a statement is not infallible that it is therefore potentially erroneous. That is why I would much rather talk about Papal Primacy than what is actually a rather minor dogma of Papal infallibility.

I have studied the decrees for instance on slavery by the Popes and councils and have found that though many of them do not meet the criterea for infallibility, they are incredibly consistent once one studies and understands the many facets of slavery and the historical context of the various decrees. Pius XII basically states (wish I could find the quote again) that decrees of Popes should be followed even though they are not infallibly declared. And again context is everything. For instance one Pope declared that democracy was evil while another declared that it was the best thing since sliced bread (Pius XII, don't have exact quotes at the moment). The difference however is that the first was speaking of aethistic democracy of the french reveloution which the second was speaking of American Democracy.

[thessalonian]

hot stuff,


[quote]There are two (2) statements that are ex cathedra. that's it. [/quote]

I have to disagree with this statement and in making it I think you are playing in to the hands of those who say that Infallibility was not a belief of the Church before Vatican I. Ludwig Odd lists about 20 infallible statements from Popes. There have only been 2 since vatican I. But the decree must be carried back in time as well and applied to previous Papal statements. That is why I disagree with your statement and do not advise that you use it in the future. God bless.

Thess

[Cam42]

[quote]That is a stellar signature. I thought I would mention that since your sig is the closest we've come to discussing the topic.[/quote]

Why thanks hot stuff. All the credit for the composition goes to the genius who put it together for me. As for your assertion, you are correct.

[quote]Pick up a copy of Ludwig Ott's "Dogma of Catholicism" (not that he's infallible but it's a pretty good summation of what the Church says is infallible).[/quote]

[url="http://jloughnan.tripod.com/dogma.htm"]Dogmas of the Catholic Faith by Dr. Ludwig Ott[/url]

There, you don't even need to buy the book, it is here online.

[quote]As I originally pointed out, ANY papal teaching that meets Vatican I's criteria for an ex cathedra statement, is an ex cathedra statement.[/quote]

That is an incorrect point. I would like to see documentation that proves it. You'll not find it. Also, saying that you have given proof, without actually giving it, isn't really giving proof. How about a direct quote on this one.

Oh and Les, when are you going to respond to my points about infalliblity? Top of page 3. Thanks.

Cam

[Jaime]

[quote]I have to disagree with this statement and in making it I think you are playing in to the hands of those who say that Infallibility was not a belief of the Church before Vatican I[/quote]

Thessalonian,

I understand what you are saying. The clarification of ex cathedra is dogma in and of itself so therefore it does apply to previous papal statements that are dogma. However, in casual conversation (and this has yet to come close to approaching scholarly) the post Vatican I examples are definitively ex cathedra and easily identifiable.

This is one reason why I've posted excerpts of ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS to add to the discussion. To distinguish between papal statements and statements of ex cathedra.

[thessalonian]

[quote]examples are definitively ex cathedra and easily identifiable[/quote].

While this is true, Ott has taken a pretty good wack at the rest.

God bless

[LittleLes]

Whoa Jamie,

You've raised an interesting issue. Are you saying that definitive statements made by the pope before it was discovered that the pope could make ex cathedra statements were not therefore infallible? In short, that papal infallibility began with Vatican I? If so, Wow! Is that new doctrine or what!

The Holy Ghost just changed his mind one day, is that what you are saying? Not a doctrine, then suddenly a doctrine.

I don't think the CDF is going to buy that one.

LittleLes

[Cam42]

[quote]In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith." (CCC 889)[/quote]

[quote]The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms: (CCC 890)[/quote]

[quote]"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself. (CCC 891)[/quote]

[quote]Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a "definitive manner," they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it. (CCC 892)[/quote]



[i]Lumen Gentium 12; cf. Dei Verbum 10
LG 25; cf. Vatican Council I:DS 3074
DV 10 § 2
LG 25 § 2
Cf. LG 25
LG 25[/i]


[quote]The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed. (CCC 2035)[/quote]

[i]Cf. LG 25; CDF, declaration, Mysterium Ecclesiae 3[/i]


[quote]The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine, including moral doctrine, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded, or observed. (CCC 2051)[/quote]

[quote]The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are "authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice." The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for. (CCC 2035)[/quote]

[i]LG 25[/i]


[quote]"In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority." Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time." (CCC 77)[/quote]



[i]DV 7 § 2; St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3,3,1:PG 7/1,848; Harvey,2,9
DV 8 § 1[/i]


[quote]The Church's Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these. (CCC 88)[/quote]


Les,

How about responding to this? I asked it once before. However, I think that this speaks to infalliblity. I would like refutation. The Italics are the citations and proofs. The quotes are direct.

Cam

Edited March 10, 2005 by Cam42

[Cam42]

[quote]In the Vatican definition infallibility (whether of fhe Church at large or of the pope) is affirmed only in regard to doctrines of faith or morals; but within the province of faith and morals its scope is not limited to doctrines that have been formally revealed. This, however, is clearly understood to be what theologians call the direct and primary object of infallible authority: it was for the maintenance and interpretation and legitimate development of Christ's teaching that the Church was endowed with this charisma.

Catholic theologians are agreed in recognising the general principle that has just been stated, but it cannot be said that they are equally unanimous in regard to the concrete applications of this principle. Yet it is generally held, and may be said to be theologically certain, (a) that what are technically described as "theological conclusions," i. e. inferences deduced from two premises, one of which is revealed and the other verified by reason, fall under the scope of the Church's infallible authority. (b) It is also generally held, and rightly, that questions of dogmatic fact, in regard to which definite certainty is required for the safe custody and interpretation of revealed truth, may be determined infallibly by the Church. Such questions, for example, would be: whether a certain pope is legitimate, or a certain council ecumenical, or whether objective heresy or error is taught in a certain book or other published document. © It is also commonly and rightly held that the Church is infallible in the canonization of saints, that is to say, when canonization takes place according to the solemn process that has been followed since the ninth century. Mere beatification, however, as distinguished from canonization, is not held to be infallible, and in canonization itself the only fact that is infallibly determined is that the soul of the canonized saint departed in the state of grace and already enjoys the beatific vision. (d) As to moral precepts or laws, as distinct from moral doctrine, infallibility goes no farther than to protect the Church against passing universal laws which in principle would be immoral. It would be out of place to speak of infallibility in connection the opportuneness or the administration of necessarily changing disciplinary laws, although, of course, Catholics believe that the Church receives appropriate Divine guidance in this and in similar matters where practical spiritual wisdom is required. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1910)[/quote]

[quote]Ex Cathedra
Literally "from the chair", a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: "We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable." (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1910)[/quote]

[quote]The Church's doctrine as to the pope was authoritatively declared in the Vatican Council in the Constitution "Pastor Aeternus". The four chapters of that Constitution deal respectively with the office of Supreme Head conferred on St. Peter, the perpetuity of this office in the person of the Roman pontiff, the pope's jurisdiction over the faithful, and his supreme authority to define in all questions of faith and morals. (Catholic Encycolpedia, 1910)[/quote]

Perhaps this will help:

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm"]Pastor Aeternus[/url]

[quote]Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith, to the glory of God our savior, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable. (PA no.9)[/quote]

This speaks directly to infallibility.

Cam