Diety of Mary?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

How could we truly be one with Christ/God in Heaven if we were not made truly divine (i.e., truly/actually participating in the Divine Nature of God) upon our union with God?

[phatcatholic]

colin...........there is no reason for YOU to be on the defensive. put it back on them and ask them how they reconcile their belief w/ the verses that clearly show us sharing in the divine life of Christ. an abundance of scripture is provided in the thread i provided for u. responding to your verses w/ verses of their own is just verse-slinging.

Edited March 11, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Mar 10 2005, 06:10 PM'] I'm just struggling with the Biblical aspect of things.  I see places where we are called to be one with Christ and all that and a part of His body.  But I'm struggling with the idea of becoming deity(the Scripture passages above seem to be strongly against the idea). [/quote]
That is because the texts quoted from Isaiah are being misapplied. Certainly there is no other God but the Lord, but all those who are participating in His life and glory are divinized in Him. Now, they are not divinized in such a way that the are 'gods' independently of Him, rather they are deified by participating in His own uncreated energy ([i]grace[/i]). Thus, when scripture says that a man becomes a son of God in Christ [cf. John 1:9-13; Romans 8:14-30; etc.], the Catholic Church takes this statement seriously, for those who have been redeemed by the Paschal Mystery of Christ have been made sons of God in the only begotten Son of God, and so, what Christ is by nature (i.e., [i]essentially[/i]), man becomes by grace (i.e., [i]energetically[/i]). This involves a real ontological participation by man in God's own being, and those who deny this truth deny the very reality of the mystery of salvation. How can a person seriously say that there is no one "like" God, when God Himself says, "'Let Us make man in Our [i]image[/i], after Our [i]likeness[/i]; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.' So God created man in His own [i]image[/i], in the [i]image[/i] of God He created him; male and female He created them." [Genesis 1:26-27] Clearly, man is made in the likeness of God, and that likeness is not simply a figurative reality, but is instead an ontological reality. In other words, man is created with the capacity to enter into the very life and glory of the Triune God, and this participation in God is the very essence of salvation.

[Crusader_4]

lets clear up some stuff here. By this idea of divinization it does not mean we become God. On the contrary we share in Gods life in the trinity through HIS grace like how Jesus does. We become a son like Jesus and through the Fathers grace are lifted up. In other words in heaven we really reflect the image of God. It is like a mirror on Earth we cloud up the mirror and cannot reflect properly but in heaven we refelct god's image and are seen in a sense like his perfect son Jesus as our sins have been purified and we take part in the trinity. This is my understanding of it someone please correct me and let me be aware of Hetredox views in this post.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Mar 13 2005, 12:22 AM'] This is my understanding of it someone please correct me and let me be aware of Hetredox views in this post. [/quote]
sounds good to me :thumb:

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Mar 12 2005, 10:22 PM'] lets clear up some stuff here.  By this idea of divinization it does not mean we become God.  On the contrary we share in Gods life in the trinity through HIS grace like how Jesus does.  We become a son like Jesus and through the Fathers grace are lifted up.   In other words in heaven we really reflect the image of God.  It is like a mirror on Earth we cloud up the mirror and cannot reflect properly but in heaven we refelct god's image and are seen in a sense like his perfect son Jesus as our sins have been purified and we take part in the trinity.  This is my understanding of it someone please correct me and let me be aware of Hetredox views in this post. [/quote]
Although I understand your concerns about this doctrine, and the possible misunderstandings that can arise from it, as an Eastern Catholic I cannot accept the idea that, "divinization does not mean we become God," because most certainly all those who have been redeemed by Christ do become God. Anyone who has been justified by grace participates in God's uncreated energies, and that means that deification is an ontological reality, and not merely a metaphorical or accidental reality.

Now, there are three modes of union in God: the first mode of union involves a [i]participation in the divine essence[/i], and this is experienced only by the three divine hypostases (i.e., the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit); the second mode of union is called [i]hypostatic[/i], and only the incarnate Logos experiences this mode of union; and the third mode of union involves a [i]participation in the divine energies[/i], and this mode of union is experienced by all those who have been made partakers of the divine nature by Christ's incarnation and His Paschal Mystery. [cf. 2 Peter 1:4] Thus, divinization involves a real participation in God's own nature through His uncreated energies, and as a consequence of this, man becomes divine and uncreated at the level of energy, while remaining a created being in his own proper essence. In other words, salvation is the elevation of man into God, for as St. Athanasius said, "God was made man that we might be made God." [St. Athanasius, [u]De Incarnatione Dei Verbi[/u], 54:3]

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='Mar 13 2005, 12:22 AM'] lets clear up some stuff here. By this idea of divinization it does not mean we become God. On the contrary we share in Gods life in the trinity through HIS grace like how Jesus does. We become a son like Jesus and through the Fathers grace are lifted up. In other words in heaven we really reflect the image of God. It is like a mirror on Earth we cloud up the mirror and cannot reflect properly but in heaven we refelct god's image and are seen in a sense like his perfect son Jesus as our sins have been purified and we take part in the trinity. This is my understanding of it someone please correct me and let me be aware of Hetredox views in this post. [/quote]
I can't agree with this post either, and I'm Western. Here is why:

[quote]By this idea of divinization it does not mean we become God.[/quote]

Yes, it does mean that "we become God" - If God really and truly became Man, then it is possible for Man to really and truly become God.

This does not mean that we become "new" or "different" Gods in a pantheistic sense, any more than the Incarnation involved Christ taking on a different humanity. Christ - God - took on [i]our[/i] humanity, and we in turn take on [i]his[/i] Divinity. The Incarnation did not create "two" humanities, and our deification does not create "two" divinities.

[quote]we share in Gods life in the trinity through HIS grace like how Jesus does.  We become a son like Jesus and through the Fathers grace are lifted up.[/quote]

Be careful here. Even Deified man does not participate in the Trinity "like how Jesus does" because Christ is [i]essentially[/i] a part of the Trinity. Man is not. We do become sons like Christ, but there is a line to be drawn. We are [i]adopted[/i] sons and daughters of God, made so by the Grace of Baptism through the merits of Christ. Christ is the only [i]begotten[/i] Son. His Sonship is essential to his person, ours is not.

[quote]in heaven we really reflect the image of God.  It is like a mirror on Earth we cloud up the mirror and cannot reflect properly but in heaven we refelct god's image and are seen in a sense like his perfect son Jesus as our sins have been purified and we take part in the trinity.[/quote]

I apologize if I seem to be nitpicking, but the last line I agree with, the reflection analogy I do not. [i]Participation[/i] in the Trinity is a much deeper thing than reflecting it. Reflection denies both our identity and our actions. In a sense, the analogy casts man as a lifeless object which magnifies the Glory of God. Rather, we retain our identity and are active participants. This means that our actions are divine actions, and that [i]we[/i] in a very real sense, become a part of God's glory, not a reflection of it.



Anyways, thats my two cents, take it or leave it. Todd, if you have anything to add or change, feel free to reply.

- Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[phatcatholic]

i think i gave it the ol' thumbs up b/c i knew what he meant, but i see now that i should have taken the time to clear up some possible misunderstandings, like Jeff and Todd have done. w/ something like the divinization of man, proper wording is essential. it can be easy to inadvertently give the wrong meaning. i also admit that i have more to learn on the matter. :pc:

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 14 2005, 03:04 PM'] [. . .] I also admit that I have more to learn on the matter. :pc: [/quote]
Me too.

[Guest JeffCR07]

me three