Good God

[MichaelFilo]

Why God created what he created the way it is.

Because it is the best for us. God loves us, and that is why black is black, not red. God loves us, so he made things the best for us. So, if you are asking why things are as they are, then know that they are because it is the best for us (rather optimistic, but the truth).

God bless,
Mikey

[argent_paladin]

God could not make us love him without us having the property of free will because that is part of the definition of love. But, you object, God is God so couldn't he change the definition of love to exclude free will? No, it then wouldn't be love.

Imagine that God wants to change the definition of a triangle from "having three sides and three angles" to "having four sides and four angles". But he can't because then it would be a square, not a triangle. But, what if he just changed the definition. "From now on, instead of calling them squares, we will call them triangles." So, now all triangles have four sides and four angles.
But if you think about it, what is called a triangle now is different than what we used to call a triangle. One can change the name, but not the intrinsic quality of something because then it becomes something else.
Removing free will from the definition of love doesn't make it a different kind of love, but makes it something else all together. And whatever it is, it isn't love.
God cannot do the logically impossible. (like create something too heavy for him to lift, or uncreate himself).

[MichaelFilo]

God created logic, and can destroy logic, and hence all our reasonsing.

God IS love. Unlike other things, like a traingle that COULD be changed, God is unchangable. He is constant. So, unlike other things, Love cannot be changed because God is Love.

God bless,
Mikey

[argent_paladin]

I disagree. If God can destroy logic, then there is no reason that God couldn't be love and not be love at the same time. And if he is not love, then cou could change the definition of love, could change, etc, etc. The only reason we know that God cannot be unchanging and change is because it is logically contradictory. Once you throw logic out, then God can change and not change, be love and not love, be good and not good, be God and not God, etc.

[MichaelFilo]

If you agree that everything was Creatio Ex Nihilo, then even logic would have to be created, and so God can be constant outside of it. God doesn't even depend on Logic to exist as He is. He works within logic so that we may understand Him, but even then we can never totally do so. When you can understand the Trinity completely, then tell me. It isn't completely logical. How can a Person of the Godhead, be completely the Godhead and still be only Person of Three? This is outside of logic; just an example.

God bless,
Mikey

[dairygirl4u2c]

so because God said so..

but to the God and logic debate with the last two posts, that looks like something unsettled. perhaps settling that will move me beyond "because God says so" though I'm not sure how at this point. those last two posts are really interesting and thoughtful though I must say and give props.

Edited July 22, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[reelguy227]

[quote name='Myles' date='Mar 9 2005, 06:14 PM']What is wrong with some people on this thread have you forgotten the essential truths of the faith?

God needs NOTHING. God is EVERYTHING. There is no change in God, God has eternally been complete and will never be anything but.

Man's freedom is a gift. Look at the stars in the sky some of those are dead and all thats left of them is their light. They lived for millions of years but not one inspite of their intensity knew or loved God and thus knew the intensity of His love.

True love must be free. God could've controlled us, indeed read Augustine he designed us so our hearts were restless til they rest with Him. He put all sorts of fail safes in us. But He made us free. Why...? So we could appreciate the gift.

Existence exists for us. Not the other way around. God doesnt benefit from the worship of creatures. Dont be ridiculous in suggesting such a blasphemous and nonsensical notion. What could human praise, the praise of a creature whose maximum possible lifespan is around 120 years add to a being who has eternally existed?

Our religion, our faith, is a gift. And because we have freedom we can appreciate that gift. Its because I have sinned for example that I really appreciate God's love. Because then I realise that 'wow' I sinned and God made me knowing I would sin. He doesnt need me but He made me knowing I would sin! He reached out to me in love knowing I'd slap His hand away and yet He kept doing it, keeps doing it and will always do it.

If I were not free, could I appreciate that? Why do you think St Augustine says 'Oh how great a sin?' when he speaks of Adam's fall.

We exist because God is benevolent enough to allow us to exist and know Him. Its incomprehensible! What extreme mercy?! Such a thing is unknown to human. The whole of human history could not even fill a second in relative time compared to the existence of the universe and even this is incomparable to the eternity of God. And yet God reaches out to us and gives us Himself. [b]He gives beings who are nothing, the only thing that is truly everything: Himself.[/b]

Having eyes do you not see? Having ears do you not hear?

Our freedom to know this is the GREATEST gift of all. We could've each existed as mere figments of God's 'imagination' possible beings without corporeal existence. But God decided freely not through psychological or biological impulse, but freely, to love us. Can we even comprehend that? St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Catherine of Genoa, St Catherine of Siena, St Bonaventure, St Thomas etc. They all say 'no'. Of course we cant. We can just sit back and LOVE it.

Look at the Church!! God is SO merciful that when we sin. It is not we who cleanse ourselves but HIM. He cleans us, He makes the wineskin new so it can hold grace and then He gives us more grace in the other sacraments? Look at the prodigality of God's love could you even begin to appreciate this if you were not free?? God so loved the world that He not only gave His only son that all who believe in Him might have eternal life. No, no, no. It was not enough that though being of one nature with God He did not cling to that nature but emptied Himself taking on the form of a servant learning obidience unto death, death on a cross. No, no, no! The most extreme sentiment is that He whose Word never goes out and returns to Him fruitless as it reads in Wisdom, He makes Himself into something that cant even SPEAK: BREAD AND WINE!!!!

As St Thomas Aquinas says its beyond man to comprehend and only faith can apprehend it. For had he not said it, as they said in John 6 'who could hear it?' to hear that the almighty is becoming bread? This is love beyond what humans are capable of. Yet God does this for us. Freely, without coercion. Those who forget this are living under law not under grace. They are striving for something far off when the Lord their God is in their midst.

We love because God first loved us. Dont you understand?

Our freedom to seek Him, to know Him, and to love Him as the Catechism puts it. That freedom allows us to BATHE AND DROWN in the LOVE of God. Yes God could force us all to focus upon Him. But that would be less beautiful than having the freedom to see all this and appreciate it accordingly.

It is because I am a sinner that I see God's Mercy.

Alleluia, thank you for my freedom beloved Jesus 
[right][snapback]543742[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


That was an amazing argument ,couldnt have said it any better myself .

[Cathurian]

Myles, that was gorgeous.

Thank you.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Myles' date='Mar 9 2005, 06:14 PM']What is wrong with some people on this thread have you forgotten the essential truths of the faith?

God needs NOTHING. God is EVERYTHING. There is no change in God, God has eternally been complete and will never be anything but.

Man's freedom is a gift. Look at the stars in the sky some of those are dead and all thats left of them is their light. They lived for millions of years but not one inspite of their intensity knew or loved God and thus knew the intensity of His love.

True love must be free. God could've controlled us, indeed read Augustine he designed us so our hearts were restless til they rest with Him. He put all sorts of fail safes in us. But He made us free. Why...? So we could appreciate the gift.

Existence exists for us. Not the other way around. God doesnt benefit from the worship of creatures. Dont be ridiculous in suggesting such a blasphemous and nonsensical notion. What could human praise, the praise of a creature whose maximum possible lifespan is around 120 years add to a being who has eternally existed?

Our religion, our faith, is a gift. And because we have freedom we can appreciate that gift. Its because I have sinned for example that I really appreciate God's love. Because then I realise that 'wow' I sinned and God made me knowing I would sin. He doesnt need me but He made me knowing I would sin! He reached out to me in love knowing I'd slap His hand away and yet He kept doing it, keeps doing it and will always do it.

If I were not free, could I appreciate that? Why do you think St Augustine says 'Oh how great a sin?' when he speaks of Adam's fall.

We exist because God is benevolent enough to allow us to exist and know Him. Its incomprehensible! What extreme mercy?! Such a thing is unknown to human. The whole of human history could not even fill a second in relative time compared to the existence of the universe and even this is incomparable to the eternity of God. And yet God reaches out to us and gives us Himself. [b]He gives beings who are nothing, the only thing that is truly everything: Himself.[/b]

Having eyes do you not see? Having ears do you not hear?

Our freedom to know this is the GREATEST gift of all. We could've each existed as mere figments of God's 'imagination' possible beings without corporeal existence. But God decided freely not through psychological or biological impulse, but freely, to love us. Can we even comprehend that? St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Catherine of Genoa, St Catherine of Siena, St Bonaventure, St Thomas etc. They all say 'no'. Of course we cant. We can just sit back and LOVE it.

Look at the Church!! God is SO merciful that when we sin. It is not we who cleanse ourselves but HIM. He cleans us, He makes the wineskin new so it can hold grace and then He gives us more grace in the other sacraments? Look at the prodigality of God's love could you even begin to appreciate this if you were not free?? God so loved the world that He not only gave His only son that all who believe in Him might have eternal life. No, no, no. It was not enough that though being of one nature with God He did not cling to that nature but emptied Himself taking on the form of a servant learning obidience unto death, death on a cross. No, no, no! The most extreme sentiment is that He whose Word never goes out and returns to Him fruitless as it reads in Wisdom, He makes Himself into something that cant even SPEAK: BREAD AND WINE!!!!

As St Thomas Aquinas says its beyond man to comprehend and only faith can apprehend it. For had he not said it, as they said in John 6 'who could hear it?' to hear that the almighty is becoming bread? This is love beyond what humans are capable of. Yet God does this for us. Freely, without coercion. Those who forget this are living under law not under grace. They are striving for something far off when the Lord their God is in their midst.

We love because God first loved us. Dont you understand?

Our freedom to seek Him, to know Him, and to love Him as the Catechism puts it. That freedom allows us to BATHE AND DROWN in the LOVE of God. Yes God could force us all to focus upon Him. But that would be less beautiful than having the freedom to see all this and appreciate it accordingly.

It is because I am a sinner that I see God's Mercy.

Alleluia, thank you for my freedom beloved Jesus 
[right][snapback]543742[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Wow!! That was beautiful...