Good God

[dairygirl4u2c]

God created man with free will so that he can choose to love God. God knew that some would not. Why did God create the nature of love, or why is the nature of God (and perhaps existence), such that some will fall away? Why didn't he make it that love didn't require free will?

Is it possible that all could be saved? But then why didn't God make it all perfect to begin with and no one would need saved from something to begin with?

Just some thoughts would be appreciated.

Edited March 8, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[jasJis]

One has to consider free will, or autonomy. If we have no free will, what would be the point? We would be automatrons running a program. Also, if we have free will, that means we have to have signifcant and meaningful choices that affect ourselves and affect others, both bad and good.
Can real Love be without free will? It's impossible.
The world was perfect in initial creation (Eden). Adam and Eve made choices that significantly affected them, and others.

[Guest Eremite]

Love requires free will by its very nature. Peter Kreeft makes the point in his book "Catholic Christianity" that love has three elements: The lover, the Beloved, and the love itself.

There cannot be a true communion of love without the act of love between the lover and the beloved. If only one of them is exercising the act of love, then it is not true love, but a forced relationship (imagine a marriage where only one spouse loved the other). God does not force himself on us. He offers himself to us, and invites us to return that love, and enter into communion with him.

[jasJis]

Peter Kreeft rocks. He explains Christiantiy very well and makes what Christians share in common very understandable.

[Archangel]

It would be confining to live a life without free will. It's like going straight to jail to prevent you from actually committing the crime.

[dairygirl4u2c]

it would be confining..
what would be the point..
that's just the nature of love...

i don't think these are really answer the why on a bigger level. why is the nature confining, why can't the point of a nonfreewilled love be meaningful, why does that have to be the nature of love? but i can understand why you'd say this as it's the only thing we can know. i suppose the answer to my question is just "because i said so", like any parent..

Edited March 8, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[jasJis]

You're just not thinking about it. Why can't black be red? Because the condition for one is exclusive of the other. Love can't be controlled because it isn't freely given and Love is a free response, not a manipulated respeonse.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Mar 7 2005, 10:12 PM'] Is it possible that all could be saved? But then why didn't God make it all perfect to begin with and no one would need saved from something to begin with? [/quote]
Basicly we are made to praise god. Our whole purpose according to christianity is to serve god, make him happy, do as he says and we will be rewarded. Basiclly your whole life is made to exhalt god. Its very arrogant IMO, but then again im not god. The reason god made us and did all that he has done, in short is to please god. Our existence is soley for gods pleasure.

[Anna]

When we turn on our computer, we expect it to come on. When we give it commands, we expect our commands to be executed. Does our computer love us? No. It just follows our commands.
God didn't create us to be computers or robots. That's why He gave us free will. We can CHOOSE whether or not to love Him.
We can choose to reject Him, and His Commandments.
We have complete freedom to love Him or reject Him.
He will not impose Himself upon us.
Loving Him is optional. We choose. That's freedom. That's free will.
(Just remember what happens to computers that don't execute the commands! )

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Archangel' date='Mar 8 2005, 12:40 AM'] It would be confining to live a life without free will. It's like going straight to jail to prevent you from actually committing the crime. [/quote]
How do you know this? How can you be sure?

And your analogy is false. Jail is the removal of freedom, yes, but more than that it's removing the 'criminal' from society.

It's possible that your free could be removed and you would not know the difference. It might [i]seem[/i] that you are making decisions while in reality you are following your pre-set path.

[dairygirl4u2c]

Well, without getting into the whole free will versus predestination debate. We'll get back to what I was saying, but I think we'll be back at just because I said so.. ad infinitum.

[quote]Why can't black be red? Because the condition for one is exclusive of the other. Love can't be controlled because it isn't freely given and Love is a free response, not a manipulated respeonse. [/quote]

Yes, I am essentially asking why can't red be black? So, let me start over again with two different responses and see where we can go with them.

I don't think the analogy quite answers my question, but I'll go with it. Why can't red be black? Why must the condition of one be exclusive of the other?


Or to make to put it in more of God terms, more like I think my question is, why is red red when it could have been black?

Edited March 9, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Anna]

Or, why did God give man the option of loving Him, when He could have FORCED everyone to love Him, just by programming it into their beings?

[Myles Domini]

What is wrong with some people on this thread have you forgotten the essential truths of the faith?

God needs NOTHING. God is EVERYTHING. There is no change in God, God has eternally been complete and will never be anything but.

Man's freedom is a gift. Look at the stars in the sky some of those are dead and all thats left of them is their light. They lived for millions of years but not one inspite of their intensity knew or loved God and thus knew the intensity of His love.

True love must be free. God could've controlled us, indeed read Augustine he designed us so our hearts were restless til they rest with Him. He put all sorts of fail safes in us. But He made us free. Why...? So we could appreciate the gift.

Existence exists for us. Not the other way around. God doesnt benefit from the worship of creatures. Dont be ridiculous in suggesting such a blasphemous and nonsensical notion. What could human praise, the praise of a creature whose maximum possible lifespan is around 120 years add to a being who has eternally existed?

Our religion, our faith, is a gift. And because we have freedom we can appreciate that gift. Its because I have sinned for example that I really appreciate God's love. Because then I realise that 'wow' I sinned and God made me knowing I would sin. He doesnt need me but He made me knowing I would sin! He reached out to me in love knowing I'd slap His hand away and yet He kept doing it, keeps doing it and will always do it.

If I were not free, could I appreciate that? Why do you think St Augustine says 'Oh how great a sin?' when he speaks of Adam's fall.

We exist because God is benevolent enough to allow us to exist and know Him. Its incomprehensible! What extreme mercy?! Such a thing is unknown to human. The whole of human history could not even fill a second in relative time compared to the existence of the universe and even this is incomparable to the eternity of God. And yet God reaches out to us and gives us Himself. [b]He gives beings who are nothing, the only thing that is truly everything: Himself.[/b]

Having eyes do you not see? Having ears do you not hear?

Our freedom to know this is the GREATEST gift of all. We could've each existed as mere figments of God's 'imagination' possible beings without corporeal existence. But God decided freely not through psychological or biological impulse, but freely, to love us. Can we even comprehend that? St Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, St Catherine of Genoa, St Catherine of Siena, St Bonaventure, St Thomas etc. They all say 'no'. Of course we cant. We can just sit back and LOVE it.

Look at the Church!! God is SO merciful that when we sin. It is not we who cleanse ourselves but HIM. He cleans us, He makes the wineskin new so it can hold grace and then He gives us more grace in the other sacraments? Look at the prodigality of God's love could you even begin to appreciate this if you were not free?? God so loved the world that He not only gave His only son that all who believe in Him might have eternal life. No, no, no. It was not enough that though being of one nature with God He did not cling to that nature but emptied Himself taking on the form of a servant learning obidience unto death, death on a cross. No, no, no! The most extreme sentiment is that He whose Word never goes out and returns to Him fruitless as it reads in Wisdom, He makes Himself into something that cant even SPEAK: BREAD AND WINE!!!!

As St Thomas Aquinas says its beyond man to comprehend and only faith can apprehend it. For had he not said it, as they said in John 6 'who could hear it?' to hear that the almighty is becoming bread? This is love beyond what humans are capable of. Yet God does this for us. Freely, without coercion. Those who forget this are living under law not under grace. They are striving for something far off when the Lord their God is in their midst.

We love because God first loved us. Dont you understand?

Our freedom to seek Him, to know Him, and to love Him as the Catechism puts it. That freedom allows us to BATHE AND DROWN in the LOVE of God. Yes God could force us all to focus upon Him. But that would be less beautiful than having the freedom to see all this and appreciate it accordingly.

It is because I am a sinner that I see God's Mercy.

Alleluia, thank you for my freedom beloved Jesus

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Or, why did God give man the option of loving Him, when He could have FORCED everyone to love Him, just by programming it into their beings? [/quote]

If it's inherently us loving God without free will, then it's not forced, because it's not going against a free will that exists.

And I'm not sure what Myles's point is. (I think he thinks I'm talking about something else)


So can we agree that it's just because God says so?

Edited March 9, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c

[Myles Domini]

[quote]God created man with free will so that he can choose to love God. God knew that some would not. Why did God create the nature of love, or why is the nature of God (and perhaps existence), such that some will fall away? Why didn't he make it that love didn't require free will?

Is it possible that all could be saved? But then why didn't God make it all perfect to begin with and no one would need saved from something to begin with?
[/quote]

My point is or was or something like that God made the world for man to appreciate God and to really appreciate something man has to be free so that he can know the opposite. God does not arbitrarily order things, He is not occamist. He doesnt simply decide that love will be something and that will be the limit of love. A free love will always be superior to a coerced love because of what it allows the lover to experience. There is simply more room for personal development, expression etc. in a free love. God's omnipotence is not unreasonable but reasonable and works reasonably. Seeing 'what was on offer' so to speak, God in his all knowing and all power brought it about. Yes God is omnipotent but his omnipotence doesnt allow him to do the logically impossible. He could have made it so nobody was free, but then there would have been a level of love not accessible to his creatures and known only to Him and He didnt want that.

Also an element of my post was not to think so much about who is saved. St Paul advises in his letter to the Romans that we should not think on who is coming up or going down. Yes its true people go to Hell. But thats not God's fault, they freely choose this path and God honours it. C.S. Lewis' the Great Divorce gives a good illustration of this. God doesnt make anybody choose Hell, He gives us all the graces we need to live in love with Him here on earth and thereafter. Some people reject this alternative i.e. Satanists.

As for the unchurched they must answer to natural law.