Damien Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 A anti-Catholic friend and I were talking last night and of course he believes only the elders and Jesus are in Heaven with God the Father and the rest of the people who have died are just waiting for the 2nd coming to be judged in a period of limbo or something like that...he also said heaven is Paradise in the Bible and this was were I finally found a error in his thought process... I showed him in the Bible were Christ was on the crucifex and was speaking to one of the robbers who told Jesus he wanted to confess his crimes and Jesus said to him that he would be with him in Paradise today...( so I told my friend the 12 elders are also up there with the robber) suSi :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 A anti-Catholic friend and I were talking last night and of course he believes only the elders and Jesus are in Heaven with God the Father and the rest of the people who have died are just waiting for the 2nd coming to be judged in a period of limbo or something like that...he also said heaven is Paradise in the Bible and this was were I finally found a error in his thought process... I showed him in the Bible were Christ was on the crucifex and was speaking to one of the robbers who told Jesus he wanted to confess his crimes and Jesus said to him that he would be with him in Paradise today...( so I told my friend the 12 elders are also up there with the robber) suSi Mom. LOG OUT, and re-login using your own name. Please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 suSi, that's ok!!!! I've accidentally posted under Temple of Vesarius' name before! (maybe if my kid wasn't logging himself in my computer, grumble grumble grumble ) Naw, really, I'm kinda glad that we share the same addiction. Pax Christi. <>< :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siebersusi Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 Thanks Anna I feel better ....suSi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 30, 2003 Share Posted October 30, 2003 He got the right idea but is 2000 years too late. All those righteous people who died from Adam to the death of Jesus waited around in a place called Abraham's bosum. When Jesus descended to them and preached to them, he opened the gates of heaven to all. When we die we have our particular judgement, and at the end of time there will be a general judgement of all people, sort of like a review session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freaky Chik Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 A anti-Catholic friend and I were talking last night and of course he believes only the elders and Jesus are in Heaven with God the Father and the rest of the people who have died are just waiting for the 2nd coming to be judged in a period of limbo or something like that...he also said heaven is Paradise in the Bible and this was were I finally found a error in his thought process... I showed him in the Bible were Christ was on the crucifex and was speaking to one of the robbers who told Jesus he wanted to confess his crimes and Jesus said to him that he would be with him in Paradise today...( so I told my friend the 12 elders are also up there with the robber) suSi So, therefore.. that would mean yer purgatory theory would be in-correct??? (was not intended to be sarcastic, but I would like to hear yer thoughts on that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 No purgatory still stands . . . not everyone is immediately in Paradise . . . We believe that the Good Thief on the Cross is in Heaven immediately . . . so we call him "Saint Dismas" (Dismas is his name according to tradition). Other people, whose lives have been exemplary the Church, with her Authority, has sought to declare as "Saints" . . . people who died in such a state of grace that they did not receive 'temporal' purification for their earthly life. Not a contradiction here . . . just an incomplete on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freaky Chik Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 (edited) Okay, but who decides he can skip purgator? Come on, he was a bad bad bad guy... God's grace stands for all. His grace covers the rapists (who obviously then turn to God) to people like me who cause arguments (whoops... aka that other post). It'd be out of God's character to let that dude not go to purgatory, and then others have to. Edited October 31, 2003 by Freaky Chik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 (edited) Jesus does . . . "Surely this day you will be with me in Paradise." It's never out of God's character to be Merciful . . . remember when Christ says to do do for the least of our brothers is to do for Him . . . that's why we should serve our brothers and sisters . . . well, the Good thief actually served him, by defending him against the other thief. He performed an act of Mercy, even though he was in a terrible and painful situation (dying on the cross) . . . he could have just kept his mouth shut and gone along with his dying, but, recognizing Christ for what he was, he chose to speak up and defend him. That's not exactly a simple thing to do . . . it took "heroic" virtue . . . to look past his own terrible suffering and comfort another who is suffering . . . Edited October 31, 2003 by BLAZEr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Jesus always makes these decisions. The Church just uses her Authority to declare that such a person has merited this grace. For example: Mother Teresa . . . the Church believes she was a holy woman, so we "open her cause" and begin to investigate her life thoroughly. Make sure there aren't any secrets she hid from the world, and really dig deep into any thing she said and wrote and taught and make sure it conforms to the Scriptures and Tradition. The Church then Declares her "heroic virtue" and waits for a Miracle to confirm her blessedness. When a miracle is attributed to Mother Teresa's intercession (miracles come from God at the request of the saints in Heaven for us, bear with me, I know you don't believe this) the Church investigates the Miracle to be sure that there is no "human" explanation for the miracle. Then she is declared "Blessed" . . . then another Miracle is required, after her declaration as "Blessed" in order to be called "Saint" Mother Teresa was just beatified in October, so if a miracle after her beatification occurs and passes the tests of the Church, then she will be "Canonized" which means that her name will be written in the Offical Canon (list) of Saints . . . This is an act of God that is declared by the Church according to her Authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freaky Chik Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Jesus always makes these decisions. The Church just uses her Authority to declare that such a person has merited this grace. For example: Mother Teresa . . . the Church believes she was a holy woman, so we "open her cause" and begin to investigate her life thoroughly. Make sure there aren't any secrets she hid from the world, and really dig deep into any thing she said and wrote and taught and make sure it conforms to the Scriptures and Tradition. The Church then Declares her "heroic virtue" and waits for a Miracle to confirm her blessedness. When a miracle is attributed to Mother Teresa's intercession (miracles come from God at the request of the saints in Heaven for us, bear with me, I know you don't believe this) the Church investigates the Miracle to be sure that there is no "human" explanation for the miracle. Then she is declared "Blessed" . . . then another Miracle is required, after her declaration as "Blessed" in order to be called "Saint" Mother Teresa was just beatified in October, so if a miracle after her beatification occurs and passes the tests of the Church, then she will be "Canonized" which means that her name will be written in the Offical Canon (list) of Saints . . . This is an act of God that is declared by the Church according to her Authority. thank you for teling me about the process of becoming a saint, I always wanted to know that. What sort of miracles? But anyways.... why should that guy who was crucified become a saint? Come on, we both know he was a bad guy who didnt' walk in God's way... it was only at the end that he gave his life to God. God's grace covers all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 (edited) read my edited post . . . We don't know when the Thief had his "conversion" but we do know that up there on the cross he exhibits "heroic" virtue . . . it wasn't a party on that Cross . . . it killed Jesus and he was Fully God as well as Fully Human . . . imagine the tortuous suffering you experience when you aren't Hope itself . . . still he looked past that to comfort Christ . . . it's pretty amazing really. Edited October 31, 2003 by BLAZEr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freaky Chik Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 sorry i only just saw yer edited version. well, the Good thief actually served him, by defending him against the other thief. He performed an act of Mercy, even though he was in a terrible and painful situation (dying on the cross) . . . he could have just kept his mouth shut and gone along with his dying, but, recognizing Christ for what he was, he chose to speak up and defend him. That's not exactly a simple thing to do . . . it took "heroic" virtue . . . to look past his own terrible suffering and comfort another who is suffering . . . With that though, generally, committed christians ARE going to find themselves in that situation. No, not on a cross in immense pain... (dont' forget though, that it was that theifs own fault for being on that cross) God is a LOVING God. He loved that theif enough to not let him go to purgatory, and He LOVES US just the same. The belief of purgatory it basically saying that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough to totally cleanse us and make us PURE AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS in His EYES. His blood is so powerful that it CAN wash the scars of our sins away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 God is a LOVING God. He loved that theif enough to not let him go to purgatory, and He LOVES US just the same. The belief of purgatory it basically saying that Jesus's sacrifice on the cross wasn't enough to totally cleanse us and make us PURE AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS in His EYES. His blood is so powerful that it CAN wash the scars of our sins away. No, the Belief in Purgatory says no such thing. Purgatory comes from Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. It recognizes that even with God's grace we will continue to fall short "All have fallen short of the Glory of God" as St. Paul Teaches. Purgatory isn't something that's apart from Christ. It's a part of Christ's mercy. It's not a place we go to "make up for our sin" it's a place that we go to be purified for the our welcome into the PERFECT AND COMPLETE Glory of Heaven. Purgatory is an act of mercy toward us, because after a life of regular sinfulness here on Earth, even if we die and are saved, we still carry with us the "scars" of our earthy life. Our soul is not somehow unnaffected by all the normal human failings of life. So when we die, we're really quite dirty with all the much of the world . . . So God in his Grace and Mercy washes us for us . . . some of us might need more scrubbing than others . . . but it's all the "blood of the Lamb" that we are being washed in. It no more takes away from Christ's glory on the Cross than it does for St. Paul to say in Colossians 1 "24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church," Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freaky Chik Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Yeh, we all fall short of God's glory... but through the blood of Jesus we've been made Holy and Righteous (that does not mean we can go keep on sinning intentionally though!) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present yholy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation." Colossians 1:22 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious dutes; again and he offers the same sacrifices, whiccan never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy. The Holy Spirit also testifto us about this. First he says: "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. How much more severely dothink a man deserves to be punikshed who has trampled the son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covernant that sanctified, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:11-23,29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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