sweetpea316 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Ok guys, this isn't exactly a debate question, I was just wondering about it a while ago, and I figured this would be an awesome place to get an answer! I'm a member of a Protestant church, and when we say the Lords Prayer, we don't end at "and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." We continue with.. "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory. Forever and ever. Amen." I had never been aware that this wasn't said by everyone until a few months ago actually. (I've lived a sheltered life... ) So, I guess my question is...where did it come from? Is it just some extra wording that has been tacked on throughout the years or what? I know that there is a 'modernized' version of the Lords Prayer, and my old church started to use it, and it annoyed me personally...I like the traditional version. "Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, On earth as in heaven. Give us today Your daily bread, and forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours. Now and forever. Amen." So, along with that, is this 'newer' version wrong? Or is it just simply different? Just some stuff that I had been wondering about! Any info about it would be great, thanks!! God bless. Through Him, Rebecca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 during mass we say the whole our Father then the congrigation stops reciting....and the priest says "Deliver us lord from ever evil and grant us peace in our day.....in your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all axsiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our savior jesus Christ"....then the congrigation come back in to say....for thine is the kingdom...... so really catholics say it as well at the youth group i attend we say the our father after every meeting...its how we end it....and we always say .......for thine is the kingdom.......and so on im really sure where it came form but i know that it is a catholic thing too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetpea316 Posted March 2, 2005 Author Share Posted March 2, 2005 Oh ok... I'd been confused about that for a while. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Black Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 But why the liturgical insert by the celebrant three-quarters of the way through ("deliver us Lord from every evil" etc)? Why not sya the whole thing through in one go? Yours in Christ Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 im not really sure....... i dont havethe theology background for that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I believe it's not so much the Catholics split it but the protestants joined the two parts together. The parts that the congregation say are two separate prayers. When Jesus taught the Our Father to the disciples (Matthew 6), he didn't say the last part. He stopped where the Catholics stop. I may be wrong on this next point, but I believe that when the Protestants abolished the priesthood there was no one to say the part that the priest would say so they just continued on to the last line after "...and deliver us from evil." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 I may be mistaken however I think its that not all the manuscripts of Matthew 6 contain the final part about the Kingdom, the power and the glory. Luke 11, which restates the Lord's prayer in a slightly different form doesnt use it and so this may explain why in private prayer Catholics arent obliged to say it. Then again the inclusion of these verses in our liturgy is an unequestionable acceptance of them so *shrugs* I dunno its just a suggestion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetpea316 Posted March 2, 2005 Author Share Posted March 2, 2005 That makes sense.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Born Again Catholic Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 I think Miles had it. And it been a while since I looked into it so don't take this as completely accurate, but I don't believe that final phrase actually appeared in any Bible until the sixth century, even though it had long been part of the liturgy of the Mass, and can be seen in the didache. Some scribe probably addded it to scripture because ity seemed fitting based on the Mass and it stuck in some versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 This is interesting..... Here is what the Latin Vulgate says: [quote][i]9[/i] sic ergo vos orabitis [i][b]Pater noster qui in caelis es sanctificetur nomen tuum 10 veniat regnum tuum fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra 11 panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie 12 et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimisimus debitoribus nostris 13 et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo[/b][/i] (Mt. 6:9-13; Latin Vulgate, 405AD)[/quote] Luther's version of scripture: [quote] [i]9[/i] Darum sollt ihr so beten: [i][b]Unser Vater im Himmel! Dein Name werde geheiligt. 10 Dein Reich komme. Dein Wille geschehe wie im Himmel so auf Erden. 11 Unser tägliches Brot gib uns heute. 12 Und vergib uns unsere Schuld, wie auch wir vergeben unsern Schuldigern. 13 Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung, sondern erlöse uns von dem Bösen.*[/b] [Denn dein ist das Reich und die Kraft und die Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit. Amen.]**[/i] (Mt. 6:9-13; DAS EVANGELIUM NACH MATTHÄUS, 1534)[/quote] and finally the KJV: [quote][i]9[/i] After this manner therefore pray ye: [i][b]Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil[/b]: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.[/i] (Mt. 6:9-13; KJV, 1611)[/quote] So, it becomes clear that the innovation of the addition to the doxology was not in the earliest manuscripts as part of the Canon of Scripture itself. It was a side note written in the Vulgate, not even part of the Canon. Luther added it, but placed it apart with brackets in his version, and finally the KJV just has it as part of it's canon. The addition of the doxology is simple. It was a side note that was added. The Church recognizes the doxology as an important notation about scripture, and includes it in the Mass, however, it is separated from the prayer itself, precisely because it is not part of what the Lord actually said. Sometimes looking at the progression of Scripture will show the addition of man who is not inspired. Cam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Cam can also supply the Lord's prayer in "elvish". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 (edited) Ádarem egor aerlinn na-Eru Phainadar Ádarem i ne menel, aer ess lîn aen, árdh lîn tolo, iest lîn aen ne menel a ned amar. Si anno i mast vîn órui ammen ah ammen aranno raegath vîn be arannam an raegdain vîn Now, this is in Quenya, not in Sindarain, in case some would challenge the authenticity of the prayer. Cam P.S. Here is a copy written in the Language: [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v672/camilam42/andries_ataremma.jpg[/img] Edited March 13, 2005 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 That's right ladies... He's fluent in Elvish and is still single!! How is THAT possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertwoman Posted March 14, 2005 Share Posted March 14, 2005 With your avatar and that statement, I can just hear an announcer's voice on lets make a date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted March 15, 2005 Share Posted March 15, 2005 What Cam said corresponds to what I've heard... The doxology was added in, probably by some Monk handwriting the Bible, in the margins. Then later added to the actual text. It wasn't what Our Lord actually said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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