Abortion: Human rights or religiously motivated

[Socrates]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 2 2005, 02:23 PM'] Actually I didn't use the qualifier "should". [/quote]
Your argument is still just as circular. I know that the law does not currently state that unborn human beings are persons.
We are arguing that this a bad law and does not reflect reality.

If the law were to declare that black human beings, or female human beings, or Jewish human beings, or any other group of human beings are not persons, would that make them not persons?

Likewise, if the law were to declare all human beings persons from the moment of conception, would they suddenly become persons in your view?

You have not answered any arguments as to why an unborn human being is not a person other than say that the law currently does not define them as such.

We're not arguing about what the law states here.
We're arguing about truth.

Quit dancing around the issue and answer the arguments.

If the best you can do is say that unborn humans are not persons because the law does not define them as such, consider your argument already lost.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='RemnantRules' date='Mar 2 2005, 04:29 PM'] you just assume that somebody else would be here but there isn't and nobody could fill the shoes that you are filling in your life. I hope that made sense.

well I must go just remember what Dr. Suess said, "A person is a person no matter how small." [/quote]
It does make sense, but that doesn't change the fact that you wouldn't know the difference. There are 6 billion people in the world -- how many of them have you met? How many will die today? Your life is in no way changed by most of those deaths.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Mar 2 2005, 05:45 PM'] Burns,

The burden of proof is on YOU. You must prove that YOUR EXCLUSIVE definition of person is the correct one.

The fact is though... you don't know.

If I go hunting with a friend and we split up, then I hear rustling in the bushes, what do I do?

I don't know whether my friend is in the bushes or whether it is a deer or other animal.

If I fire into the bushes and kill my friend, the responsibility is on me.

In the same way, if you go into the womb and remove what may or may not be a person, if it is... the crime is on you.

In a situation of unknowns, especially involving life and death, we must err on the side of life. [/quote]
I don't feel the need to prove anything. If you want to ask me why I use that definition of person, I'll explain that it makes the most sense. If you disagree, you disagree. That happens sometimes. People can't come to consensus and must agree to disagree. That is what is going to happen here, because I'm not really even trying to convince you to change your definition. I'm simply stating mine.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='Mar 2 2005, 07:10 PM'] 1. Animals do have souls, in fact, everything that is a united substance has a soul, or its equivalent a "substantial form". And if you were willing, I would be perfectly happy to prove to you the existence of souls. You seem to be misinformed as to what a metaphysical concept is. Just because something is metaphysical, doesn't mean that it has no bearing on humanity. In fact, can you prove "humanity" can you see it? Measure this thing called "humanity"? Humanity is the essence of human beings, the commonality that human beings share, it is that which makes us human. Isn't that metaphysical? So, you are wrong about my beliefs, wrong about the relevance of metaphysics, wrong about souls being unprovable, etc, etc. When will you stop? [/quote]
You say that with such certainty. So, it's okay to kill things with souls as long as they are not human. That kind of logic makes me queasy. And, I'm sorry, but no you can't prove that souls exist. It has been attempted and has failed many times.

[quote]2. You make an excellent point about the difference between a human being and a legal human person. However, the burden is on you to explain why some human beings should not be considered legal human persons. It seems to me that the default should be that all humans are legal persons unless proven otherwise. Just because the law defines a human being as not being a legal person doesn't mean that they are not in reality persons (women are not legal persons in many countries, blacks were not in America, Jews were not in Nazi Germany etc.)[/quote]

Slaves were 3/5 of a person, actually. Work that one out in your mind. We give levels of personhood depending on age as it is. Babies have no say in where they live or who their parents are. Children under...what, 12?...don't get to decide which parent they go with in a divorce. Students don't have the same First and Fourth Amendment rights as adults. People under 18 can't vote. We even don't let those who've been convicted of a felony vote. Each of these is an example of lesser personhood under the law. The reason abortion is such a hotbutton issue for most people (under all the rhetoric) is that it allows women to actually be in control of their bodies. It means that women don't have to give their time, space, and health to anyone else if they don't want. It means that women can be as free with their sexuality as men once were *gasp*

[quote]So, legally you are on solid ground, but philosophically, you are not. How do you explain, philosophically, why a fetus, fully capable of surviving on its own outside the womb is not granted personhood under the law, when a baby is? Consider the example of identical twins. One is born and the other is still in the womb and aborted. The only difference is that one was still in the womb and thus not a legal person. The only difference is location. Identical biology, psychology, support needs, etc. Saying that a fetus is not a legal person is obvious. But saying why is not.[/quote]

Because birth is universal. Each person has been born in some way so you can't separate by race, class, or sexuality. In order to be a person under the law one must be born. It's not so much to ask, methinks.

*sigh* Here's where people are going to start getting angry.

Before birth feti are parasites. They attach themselves to an organ and begin to leech nutrients from the host body. They chemically alter the host causing sickness and sometimes disease and then physically alter the body causing swelling and pain among other things. Then they force their way out often ripping flesh as they do so.