burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Mar 2 2005, 12:52 PM'] Prove that you are a person, I am a person, and everyone who is not in the womb is a person without using arguments that would support that those in the womb are persons as well. [/quote] How hard is this to understand? I, you, and several billion others are human beings that have been born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='RemnantRules' date='Mar 2 2005, 02:13 PM'] burnsspivey, First I want to say thank you for your life! Wow what a precious gift life is. Don't you think a "fetus" which in translation means unborn baby, so a baby has the same right to life as you do right now? God Bless you sir or mam. God Bless Jason Gregory [/quote] "Right to life" is a tenuous concept, at best. The state can take away my life if it deems me guilty of certain crimes as can the federal government. My life can be taken away if I live in another country and the US decides that my countrypeople should be "liberated". Another person can take it away if I enter their domicile -- even if it's accidental and I mean them no harm. And those are just he legal ways that I can lose my 'right to life'. You know what I do think, though? I think that every person has the right to decide what to do with their own body. I think that if I decide to have my tonsils removed and my doctor agrees, no one should be able to tell me I can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemnantRules Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Good point burns however you contridicted yourself...you just proved my point in that it's YOUR choice, so you can choose not to get yourself in those situations to where your life is in jepordy...now yes I know it doesn't account to say the innocent by standered but we all have our free choice... Now what if your mom exercised her right and choosing not to have you? you wouldn't had been able to do everything that you have done in your life. To experience all the wonderful things this world has to offer and we wouldn't have the blessings of your life her on earth...now would that be fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='RemnantRules' date='Mar 2 2005, 02:45 PM'] Good point burns however you contridicted yourself...you just proved my point in that it's YOUR choice, so you can choose not to get yourself in those situations to where your life is in jepordy...now yes I know it doesn't account to say the innocent by standered but we all have our free choice... Now what if your mom exercised her right and choosing not to have you? you wouldn't had been able to do everything that you have done in your life. To experience all the wonderful things this world has to offer and we wouldn't have the blessings of your life her on earth...now would that be fair? [/quote] Yep, I can choose to not be falsely convicted and executed. I'll get right on that. If my mother had aborted me I would not know any different and neither would you. This is, by far, the worst argument anyone has ever used against abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemnantRules Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 (edited) It's ok if you don't agree with my "arguments" but please be respectful to my views and my points as I have of yours. BUT if you don't then I forgive you. Thank You. God Bless burnsspivey Jason Gregory Edited March 2, 2005 by RemnantRules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemnantRules Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Does everyone understand what the procedures of an abortion are in the first place? They aren't "gentle" first of all and the emotional scaring last longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1337 k4th0l1x0r Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 2 2005, 01:28 PM'] How hard is this to understand? I, you, and several billion others are human beings that have been born. [/quote] Actually, this is at the very heart of the matter and also at the heart of the matter why you think abortion is acceptable. If a fetus is a human being and killing another human being is murder, then killing a fetus is murder. How do I even know you're a person with a soul. Sure you may act like it, but for all I know it can be an illusion. The problem is that most pro-choice individuals do not abort their children for good theological reasons. They try to theologically justify it so they can stand before others and pretend to hide their shame. The fact is that abortions are done for selfish reasons and these people really don't care about others whether they're born or unborn. They say that Jesus will 'understand' them whatever that means. What do you think the Jesus would have said to the prostitute if she said she wanted to keep doing her job? And just because your actions can be understood doesn't mean their justified. It's easy to understand why most murders happen. Are you going to say they're right? Sorry for the rant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemnantRules Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote]Yep, I can choose to not be falsely convicted and executed. I'll get right on that. If my mother had aborted me I would not know any different and neither would you.[/quote] Innocent until proven guilty...I would know if you were aborted b/c I wouldn't be able to talk to you and maybe us personally wouldn't know any different our families would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='RemnantRules' date='Mar 2 2005, 02:56 PM'] It's ok if you don't agree with my "arguments" but please be respectful to my views and my points as I have of yours. BUT if you don't then I forgive you. Thank You. God Bless burnsspivey Jason Gregory [/quote] I wasn't attacking you, dear, just your argument. That's what debate is all about. I apologize if my opinion offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Mar 2 2005, 03:07 PM'] Actually, this is at the very heart of the matter and also at the heart of the matter why you think abortion is acceptable. If a fetus is a human being and killing another human being is murder, then killing a fetus is murder. How do I even know you're a person with a soul. Sure you may act like it, but for all I know it can be an illusion. [/quote] Could be. Perhaps I don't have a soul...how should I know? When was the last time you saw your soul? [quote]The problem is that most pro-choice individuals do not abort their children for good theological reasons. [/quote] People do not have to have "good theological" reasons to do anything. [quote]They try to theologically justify it so they can stand before others and pretend to hide their shame. [/quote] Not everyone who has an abortion is ashamed. [quote]The fact is that abortions are done for selfish reasons and these people really don't care about others whether they're born or unborn.[/quote] Now you're putting words in their mouths...or thoughts in their heads as the case may be. Abortions are performed for many reasons, selfishness is among them. [quote]They say that Jesus will 'understand' them whatever that means. [/quote] I agree, it is a pretty meaningless quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 [quote name='RemnantRules' date='Mar 2 2005, 03:08 PM'] Innocent until proven guilty...I would know if you were aborted b/c I wouldn't be able to talk to you and maybe us personally wouldn't know any different our families would. [/quote] Innocent until proven guilty by 12 "peers" who base your innocence or guilt on the persuasiveness of your attorney. It has been proven that innocent people have been wrongly executed. And, no, you wouldn't know the difference because I would never have existed. There would be someone else here, taking my place...perhaps less obnoxiously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemnantRules Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 you just assume that somebody else would be here but there isn't and nobody could fill the shoes that you are filling in your life. I hope that made sense. well I must go just remember what Dr. Suess said, "A person is a person no matter how small." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RemnantRules Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 (edited) Sorry for the double post but I just wanted to add also yes there have been people convicted when they were innocent and they haven't done anything wrong...but so have 43 million babies who didn't do anything wrong either. They were created and were innocent and yet were still killed. Edited March 2, 2005 by RemnantRules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted March 2, 2005 Share Posted March 2, 2005 Burns, The burden of proof is on YOU. You must prove that YOUR EXCLUSIVE definition of person is the correct one. The fact is though... you don't know. If I go hunting with a friend and we split up, then I hear rustling in the bushes, what do I do? I don't know whether my friend is in the bushes or whether it is a deer or other animal. If I fire into the bushes and kill my friend, the responsibility is on me. In the same way, if you go into the womb and remove what may or may not be a person, if it is... the crime is on you. In a situation of unknowns, especially involving life and death, we must err on the side of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted March 3, 2005 Share Posted March 3, 2005 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Mar 2 2005, 10:35 AM'] 1) You are, quite simply, wrong. A soul is a metaphysical concept that has absolutely zero bearing on humanity. The fact that some people believe in them and some don't is relevant. Especially when you consider that many people believe that animals have souls. What, it only doesn't matter when you find yourself on the other side of the coin? You can't make an argument based on souls, if for no other reason, because a soul can't be proven. Make the rest of your arguments as long and as often as you wish, but drop this one. Human interdependance is quesitonable at best. If a woman giving birth were to die as the head was crowning would the spawn die too? Apparently, the head crowning is defined as birth (though I'm sure there are many women who would argue there's more to it) and thus a crowned head = person. Those who cannot breathe or eat for themselves are a different story altogether. They aren't living inside of another creature, for one. I'm not going any further on this subject -- it's for a different thread. Interesting point. I shall think on this. Actually, you must first prove that a fetus [i]is[/i] a person. Note that person and human are different things here because we're talking about the legal use of the word. Quite simply: a human being that has been born. [/quote] 1. Animals do have souls, in fact, everything that is a united substance has a soul, or its equivalent a "substantial form". And if you were willing, I would be perfectly happy to prove to you the existence of souls. You seem to be misinformed as to what a metaphysical concept is. Just because something is metaphysical, doesn't mean that it has no bearing on humanity. In fact, can you prove "humanity" can you see it? Measure this thing called "humanity"? Humanity is the essence of human beings, the commonality that human beings share, it is that which makes us human. Isn't that metaphysical? So, you are wrong about my beliefs, wrong about the relevance of metaphysics, wrong about souls being unprovable, etc, etc. When will you stop? 2. You make an excellent point about the difference between a human being and a legal human person. However, the burden is on you to explain why some human beings should not be considered legal human persons. It seems to me that the default should be that all humans are legal persons unless proven otherwise. Just because the law defines a human being as not being a legal person doesn't mean that they are not in reality persons (women are not legal persons in many countries, blacks were not in America, Jews were not in Nazi Germany etc.) So, legally you are on solid ground, but philosophically, you are not. How do you explain, philosophically, why a fetus, fully capable of surviving on its own outside the womb is not granted personhood under the law, when a baby is? Consider the example of identical twins. One is born and the other is still in the womb and aborted. The only difference is that one was still in the womb and thus not a legal person. The only difference is location. Identical biology, psychology, support needs, etc. Saying that a fetus is not a legal person is obvious. But saying why is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now