Bill Maher Says Christians Have Neurological

[Paladin D]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Feb 23 2005, 01:30 PM']
Of course, the inherent difference between homosexuals as a class and christians as a class is that homosexuals don't believe in imaginary friends.




Disclaimer: That was a joke. I know there are many people on this site who would not see it as such, but that is how it was meant. [/quote]
The point of that specific complaint, was the fact he was discriminating and sladdering a specific group of people (Christians and other religious). If he used that same tone against homosexuals, he would've been fired.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Feb 23 2005, 01:25 PM'] Ooh, do I get to fight Baatezu or Tanar'ri? Wait, you aren't....


Nevermind. *goes back to her DnD books* [/quote]
Are you aware of what my post was referencing???

[Dave]

Bill Maher loves bashing Christians -- especially Catholics. He was raised Catholic, actually. He needs prayers -- lots of 'em.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Feb 23 2005, 03:22 PM'] Are you aware of what my post was referencing??? [/quote]
Joke, dear. It was a joke.

See, I read a lot of DnD books, so when I see Gehenna, I automatically think of Baatezu and Tanar'ri demons. I know that's not what you were referencing, so I made a joke.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 23 2005, 02:09 PM']
Thankfully, the American government exists for the people, and not the other way around. It is for this reason we have numerous amendments to the Constitution.

The Supreme Court said in 1891:

"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian ... this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation ... we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth ... this is a Christian nation." (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)"

Now, the Treaty of Tripoli is correct in the sense that the American government does not offer any formal worship to God, or answer to any formal religious institution; furthermore, it holds religious liberty in high esteem. However, to deny the Christian foundation of America's laws and history is to divorce them from any objective analysis. [/quote]
It's amazing what those ellipses can do:

[quote]These and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. [/quote]

Justice Breyer is commenting on the behavior of the people of America.

Further:

[quote]Footnote 8) While the court recognizes that the Christian tradition has played an important role in American culture, the defendants’ reliance on Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457, 12 S.Ct. 511, 36 L.Ed. 226 (1892), is misplaced. In that case, the Supreme Court examined whether a service contract between an incorporated church and a foreign minister fell within the purview of a statute regulating the import of foreign laborers. The Court’s analysis focused upon and delineated rules of statutory construction and did not entail First Amendment jurisprudence. Indeed, the language cited by the defendants is dicta and is neither that Court’s ruling nor vital to its ruling.[/quote]
[i]ACLU v. McCreary County Kentucky, Jimmie Greene, et al[/i]

The foundation of America is not christian per se, but I won't deny that it has a religious (mostly deist) bent. That's why we have the First Amendment...or, rather, why it's so important.

[Guest Eremite]

Burns,

The first amendment deals with an official Church institution being set up by the government. It has no bearing on the fact that America's laws and history have their foundation in Christianity.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 12:10 PM'] Burns,

The first amendment deals with an official Church institution being set up by the government. It has no bearing on the fact that America's laws and history have their foundation in Christianity. [/quote]
Eremite, the First Amendment deals with Free Exercise of religion. It does reflect that the founders certainly understood that different religions were being practiced. It's so important because we have to protect people from the government invading into their practice of religion.

[Guest Eremite]

Burns,

Here is the text of the first amendment:

[quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;[/quote]

1) Congress will not establish an institutional religion for people to follow, 2) Congress will not prohibit anyone else from establishing (or following) a religion.

The government has never established Christianity as a formal function of the state (except in the original colonies, which were explicitly Christian). Rather, it has used its Christian (and Jewish) heritage as the basis of its laws and structures. America is, at its foundation, a Christian nation, and the government exists in light of that fact. This is not to say all the laws of America are Christian, or that every government official looks to the Bible for its decisions, but rather that the structure of America has a Christian foundation. Unfortunately, the modern American government is slowly apostasizing from that foundation. But that is a separate question altogether.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 01:45 PM'] Burns,

Here is the text of the first amendment:



1) Congress will not establish an institutional religion for people to follow, 2) Congress will not prohibit anyone else from establishing (or following) a religion. [/quote]
Thanks for quoting that, but I already knew it. Point one prevents the government from pushing religion onto people. Point two prevent the government from interfering in the proper proceedures of people's religions. The fact that they were included in the Bill of Rights shows that the founders knew that different religions were being practiced and that should be respected.

[quote]The government has never established Christianity as a formal function of the state (except in the original colonies, which were explicitly Christian).  Rather, it has used its Christian (and Jewish) heritage as the basis of its laws and structures. America is, at its foundation, a Christian nation, and the government exists in light of that fact. This is not to say all the laws of America are Christian, or that every government official looks to the Bible for its decisions, but rather that the structure of America has a Christian foundation. Unfortunately, the modern American government is slowly apostasizing from that foundation. But that is a separate question altogether.[/quote]

The government hasn't done so because it can't, by it's own laws. The government's heritage is mixed of more than christian and jewish religion. Especially deist beliefs were included, which ARE separate from christian. America is not a christian nation, however hard you wish it were so. The government exists because a group of wealthy white landowners of a myriad of religious and political beliefs decided to draft a constitution. Not because a group of christians decided to get together and make a country. Your argument isn't very sound, because you are arguing in circles. 'America is, at its foundation, a christian nation because it has a christian foundation.' Modern American government is based (mostly) on the constitution that was drafted by the founders -- which allows for a nation such as ours. It's hard to say that they wanted us to be christian when they gave us so much freedom not to be.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Thanks for quoting that, but I already knew it.[/quote]

I wasn't suggesting you didn't. I just wanted to get the actual text out there, so we were'nt assuming what it actually said.

[quote]Point one prevents the government from pushing religion onto people. [/quote]

No it does not. It simply says Congress will not make a LAW regarding the establishment of a state religion. It doesn't say the government can't encourage religion (so long as its not made a law).

[quote]The fact that they were included in the Bill of Rights shows that the founders knew that different religions were being practiced and that should be respected.[/quote]

I agree. That still has nothing to do with the foundation of America, which was based on God-given rights, rather those given by man (see the Declaration of Independence).

[quote]America is not a christian nation, however hard you wish it were so.[/quote]

Honestly, I couldn't care less whether America were a historically Christian nation or not. I'm still going to advance my vision of where things need to go, whether America is Christian or Pagan. I acknowledge it, however, because it is historicall true.

[quote]It's hard to say that they wanted us to be christian when they gave us so much freedom not to be.[/quote]

I didn't say America "wanted us to be Christian". I said the historical foundation of America is in Judeo-Christian principles. Most American presidents operated under the influence of their Christian faith. There is a reason the Supreme Court in Washingtom has a statue of Moses bearing the 10 commandments; because they are the foundation of American principles. By the word "foundation", I do not mean they are laws in themselves, but they are the historical FOUNDATION for how America has operated in its laws and structures.

[Melchisedec]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Feb 24 2005, 01:56 PM'] Thanks for quoting that, but I already knew it. Point one prevents the government from pushing religion onto people. Point two prevent the government from interfering in the proper proceedures of people's religions. The fact that they were included in the Bill of Rights shows that the founders knew that different religions were being practiced and that should be respected.



The government hasn't done so because it can't, by it's own laws. The government's heritage is mixed of more than christian and jewish religion. Especially deist beliefs were included, which ARE separate from christian. America is not a christian nation, however hard you wish it were so. The government exists because a group of wealthy white landowners of a myriad of religious and political beliefs decided to draft a constitution. Not because a group of christians decided to get together and make a country. Your argument isn't very sound, because you are arguing in circles. 'America is, at its foundation, a christian nation because it has a christian foundation.' Modern American government is based (mostly) on the constitution that was drafted by the founders -- which allows for a nation such as ours. It's hard to say that they wanted us to be christian when they gave us so much freedom not to be. [/quote]
Well said.

In a nutshell christians want to say this country was founded under their religion so they can justify trying to impose religion upon the wrest of america. I would just like to say that IF america was founded under this religion , than it sure had alot of shortcommings. Racisim and Slavery, Womens sufferage, the genocide of the native americans to name a few.

[Guest Eremite]

Melchisidec,

As I told burns, it doesn't matter one whit to me whether America is historically Christian or not. There are Protestants who defend this truth to the death, because America is the summit of the Protestant civil vision. That America is apostosizing means they are losing the only Christendom they've ever known, much like Catholicism lost its Christendom with the advent of the Protestant revolution. Catholics came to America as outsiders, and remain in America as outsiders (to an extent). America is no Catholic nation, that's for sure, and never has been.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Eremite

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 02:21 PM'] Melchisidec,

As I told burns, it doesn't matter one whit to me whether America is historically Christian or not. There are Protestants who defend this truth to the death, because America is the summit of the Protestant civil vision. That America is apostosizing means they are losing the only Christendom they've ever known, much like Catholicism lost its Christendom with the advent of the Protestant revolution. Catholics came to America as outsiders, and remain in America as outsiders (to an extent). America is no Catholic nation, that's for sure, and never has been. [/quote]
We need to get this straight. The 'pilgrims' who originally came to America were puritans. The colonies that they founded were religious. The colonies founded by the various European countries were religious -- protestant for the UK and catholic for Spain, etc. The United States, when it was founded, was not religious in nature. The founders thereof specifically added provisions to prevent it from being so (see 1st Amendment, Bill of Rights, Constitution of the United States). The citizens of the United States were of various religions, mostly christian, as they are today. None of this makes the US a christian nation. You say that you don't care whether it is or not, but you keep arguing that it is -- without proof, I might add. So, please, do explain how it is that you are so concerned with the christian foundation of the US without caring about whether or not it's true.

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Eremite' date='Feb 24 2005, 02:16 PM'] No it does not. It simply says Congress will not make a LAW regarding the establishment of a state religion. It doesn't say the government can't encourage religion (so long as its not made a law).
[/quote]
Please explain this concept to me. How can the government encourage religion without making it law.

[quote]I agree. That still has nothing to do with the foundation of America, which was based on God-given rights, rather those given by man (see the Declaration of Independence).[/quote]

*clears throat* "Creator" bestowed rights, not god given.



[quote]Honestly, I couldn't care less whether America were a historically Christian nation or not. I'm still going to advance my vision of where things need to go, whether America is Christian or Pagan. I acknowledge it, however, because it is historicall true.[/quote]

As do those of like mind with you. Which is how people like me are persecuted.

[quote]I didn't say America "wanted us to be Christian". I said the historical foundation of America is in Judeo-Christian principles. Most American presidents operated under the influence of their Christian faith. There is a reason the Supreme Court in Washingtom has a statue of Moses bearing the 10 commandments; because they are the foundation of American principles. By the word "foundation", I do not mean they are laws in themselves, but they are the historical FOUNDATION for how America has operated in its laws and structures.[/quote]

If you look far enough back, christian principles are based on other, pre-existing principles. In that sense, all common law is based on such things. However, new laws must be based on something else.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Please explain this concept to me. How can the government encourage religion without making it law.[/quote]

Faith-based initiatives. (See Bush [comma] George)

[quote]*clears throat* "Creator" bestowed rights, not god given.[/quote]

*Clears throat*:

[quote]When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's GOD entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.[/quote]

[quote]As do those of like mind with you. Which is how people like me are persecuted.[/quote]

This is too loaded a comment to even respond to.

[quote]If you look far enough back, christian principles are based on other, pre-existing principles. In that sense, all common law is based on such things. However, new laws must be based on something else.[/quote]

Right, Jewish. Hence the phrase "Judeo-Christian", and hence the statue of Moses, whence came the decalogue.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Eremite