Constantine

[delta557]

Oh, comon people! It's a comic! Someone said something about "flawed logic" earlier. Last I checked, radioactive spiders and superhuman powers were quite flawed, but nobody gawks at that. I thought that the movie was awesome as far as kicking demon butt goes. Some of the stuff was confusing, but if I had read the comic I bet it would have come a lot easier. The only thing that got to me was the whole Son of Satan thing. Is there really a son of satan who is going to come to the world like that? And what about the satanic Corinthians having a 17th part to it? Any truth to either of those? In the end, I'm not going to let some trivial arguments stop me from enjoying a good movie. The effects were good, and I think they portrayed Lucifer pretty well. And I [i]loved[/i] how the blame ultimately fell on the Nazi's...those guys are so easy to blame stuff on hahahah!

[Socrates]

Haven't seen Constantine, but I wanted to say I think there is a point in people being troubled by this and similar comics or movies with religious themes.

I think everyone sees them as fantasy and nonsense, but I think taking creative liberties with Catholic theology can confuse people as to what the Catholic Church indeed teaches, especially today when many people are so badly educated about the Faith.

I also think its problematic in these comics that have a plot theme of heros making a deal with the devil or beating the devil at his own game (such as Spawn), rather than following God. This can be dangerous for impressionable youth.

I haven't seen the flick and haven't read the comics, and I'm not out condemning all such things, I just wanted to point out that there is a bit more at stake when spiritual and theological themes are taken liberty with, rather than the laws of science (as in mutants, radioactive spiders, etc.)

[Oik]

Delta, look at your post. You assert that "fanatsy" is not really a big deal (radioactive spiders amd the such).

then you go on and ask, does Satan really have a so? Is there a 17 verse of Corinthians?

I'm not faulting you, but really, Constantine causes your to question your Faith in a negative way.

Someone might say, Well C. S. Lewis' Space Trilogy causes me to question my faith!


What we must realize is that an author, in so much as he creates in his art, has the responsibility of creating an Honest depection of fantasy.

Right, i know that sounds absurd, Truthful fiction?

Look at i this way, it must be honest in the fact that is does justice to reality. Fantasy can contain impossibilities (or improbabilities) but if it contains out right contridictions, it does not to justice to reality. (ie sliting ones wrists to do what is right [the ends don't justify the means!])

[musturde]

[quote name='Oik' date='Mar 1 2005, 11:21 AM'] Delta, look at your post. You assert that "fanatsy" is not really a big deal (radioactive spiders amd the such).

then you go on and ask, does Satan really have a so? Is there a 17 verse of Corinthians?

I'm not faulting you, but really, Constantine causes your to question your Faith in a negative way.

Someone might say, Well C. S. Lewis' Space Trilogy causes me to question my faith!


What we must realize is that an author, in so much as he creates in his art, has the responsibility of creating an Honest depection of fantasy.

Right, i know that sounds absurd, Truthful fiction?

Look at i this way, it must be honest in the fact that is does justice to reality. Fantasy can contain impossibilities (or improbabilities) but if it contains out right contridictions, it does not to justice to reality. (ie sliting ones wrists to do what is right [the ends don't justify the means!]) [/quote]
I guess there are some misconceptions but what in hollywood doesn't have misconceptions about us? If i was to slit my wrist to save someone's life, I would do it. Heck, i'd run in front of a car to save someone's life. Jesus died on a cross to save our lives. This is mere fiction, not something we can debate about historically.

[delta557]

[quote name='Oik' date='Mar 1 2005, 11:21 AM'] Delta, look at your post. You assert that "fanatsy" is not really a big deal (radioactive spiders amd the such).

then you go on and ask, does Satan really have a so? Is there a 17 verse of Corinthians?

I'm not faulting you, but really, Constantine causes your to question your Faith in a negative way. [/quote]
The fantasy thing that I really have no problem with is trapping demons in mirrors, and demons that are made of snakes, bugs, etc. And the thing where the guy with the Spear of Destiny is invincible...great fantasy stuff, no objections. But when they started citing facts, like the supposed Corinthians verse, I wasnt sure if that was based on any truth at all.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Feb 28 2005, 07:04 PM'] Haven't seen Constantine, but I wanted to say I think there is a point in people being troubled by this and similar comics or movies with religious themes.

I think everyone sees them as fantasy and nonsense, but I think taking creative liberties with Catholic theology can confuse people as to what the Catholic Church indeed teaches, especially today when many people are so badly educated about the Faith.

I also think its problematic in these comics that have a plot theme of heros making a deal with the devil or beating the devil at his own game (such as Spawn), rather than following God. This can be dangerous for impressionable youth.

I haven't seen the flick and haven't read the comics, and I'm not out condemning all such things, I just wanted to point out that there is a bit more at stake when spiritual and theological themes are taken liberty with, rather than the laws of science (as in mutants, radioactive spiders, etc.) [/quote]
Exactly.

[DemonSlayer]

That film was pretty bad, it was too confusing (not for me personally) and boring, had no real point and it misrepresents Catholicism, with the occultic elements (e.g. a metal cross which can sanctify water, and the amulet which protects you from demons), the mistruths about Jesus Christ (e.g. Him dying from being pierced by a spear) and Catholic theology/dogma (e.g. suicide closing the door on any possibility of salvation).
And what was up with the angel swearing, trying to unleash the son of satan into the world and consequently being made into a human by God...
Ultimately it doesn't truly say anything good about God.

Edited March 3, 2005 by DemonSlayer

[musturde]

This movie was pretty good but It mixed up our beliefs a lot. Now I wouldn't do what Constantine did in the last part of the movie, when he cuts himself to save the girl, but that's just part of the fiction. They may have just made it very absurd so they would make it seem fictatious and no one would get offended. I don't think many outside our faith will try to connect this movie to any of our beliefs.

[Lil Red]

here's the usccb.org's review of it:

[quote]Constantine


Intensely violent action film, based on the "Hellblazer" graphic novels, about a world-weary, chain-smoking exorcist (Keanu Reeves) fighting lung cancer and demonic forces with the help of a police detective (Rachel Weisz), whose twin sister either committed suicide or was murdered and is now consigned to the fires of hell. Though gussied up with all sorts of religious mumbo jumbo -- the powers of good versus the forces of evil, self-sacrifice, redemption, a Gabriel character (Tilda Swinton), and a "sword of destiny" (aka the weapon used to pierce Christ on the cross) -- Francis Lawrence's film is basically another formulaic action film -- think "The Exorcist," "Alien" and "The Matrix" rolled into one -- that's only fitfully interesting, when the gory bits aren't positively wince-inducing. Graphic violence with attendant gore, some rough and crude language, and some sacrilegious imagery. L -- limited adult audience, films whose problematic content many adults would find troubling. ® 2005
Full Review
Think "The Exorcist," "Alien," "The Sixth Sense" "Rosemary's Baby" and "The Matrix" rolled into one, and you have a fair idea of what awaits you in "Constantine" (Warner Bros.).

Based on the DC/Vertigo "Hellblazer" series of graphic novels by Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis, this is an intensely violent action film, with a pretentious veneer of religiosity.

At its center we have John Constantine (Keanu Reeves), a world-weary, chain-smoking exorcist fighting lung cancer and demonic forces. The first exorcism he performs, on a Latina girl in Los Angeles, makes the Linda Blair scenes in the first "Exorcist" look tame. His method includes capturing the inner demon in a mirror, and throwing it out the window!

Meanwhile, there's police detective Angela Dodson (Rachel Weisz), deeply troubled about her twin sister, recently confined to a mental institution and a presumed suicide.

But Angela knows her sister was a good Catholic and would never have ended her life, so reasons she must have been murdered. When Angela approaches a priest about having a proper funeral for her sister, he says a kind but firm "no."

She's heard of Constantine, so she tracks him down, flashes her badge, and states her case. Constantine has just heard that he may only have a short time to live, and is reluctant to help her, but she wins him over.

"Heaven and hell are right here," he tells Angela. "Angels and demons can't cross over, but we have half-breeds." These are creatures who look human but are, in fact, in league with God or the devil.

Since he was a child, Constantine had the uncanny ability to see them, and when electric shocks and the like failed to "cure" him, he tried to kill himself, which means he's destined for an eternity in hell, whose residents are doomed to be "ripped apart in screaming agony."

He hopes that by rooting out demons he'll earn brownie points for heaven, but to his anxious queries -- "Haven't I served him enough?" -- the angel Gabriel (Tilda Swinton in male drag) proffers little hope. Later, Constantine prays to God, "I know I'm not welcome in your house, but I could use some attention."

Constantine travels with his trusty apprentice Chaz (Shia LaBeouf), who longs to do more than serve as his driver. There's also a nebbishy occult expert who keeps Constantine armed with the latest demon-busting paraphernalia. And a troubled priest (Pruitt Taylor Vince), a recovered alcoholic who fears a relapse. He wears an amulet around his neck to ward off evil spirits, but when he's persuaded to part with it, big trouble comes his way. Later, Angela carelessly removes her spirit-proof amulet, and probably wishes she hadn't. (It's that kind of movie, where characters do illogical things.)

Constantine frequents a private bar, run by a black honcho named Midnite (Djimon Hounsou), who has a sinister sidekick named Balthazaar (Gavin Rossdale), the devil's henchman.

None of Constantine's cronies believe it's possible that full-blown demons are manifesting themselves on earth, but Constantine knows better. After being attacked by a real demon on a rainy night -- shown with genuinely creepy special effects -- Constantine begins to intuit that the demons may be ready to break through in their unadulterated awfulness.

Constantine tells Angela they had better determine whether Isabel is indeed in hell. With the aid of a cat, and sitting with his feet in a pan of water, he's able to take an excursion to hell, portrayed in the traditional way -- lots of red, frightening creatures and writhing bodies.

Later, Angela confesses that her sister was put away because she had the power to see strange things, and Angela can, too, though she's denied it to herself all her life. She asks him if she can test out her spirit-discerning abilities, and Constantine obliges by holding her under the water in a bathtub, a distasteful scene that reads as a brutal drowning, even though it's not.

Though gussied up with all sorts of religious mumbo jumbo -- the powers of good versus the forces of evil, self-sacrifice, redemption, the Gabriel character, and a "sword of destiny" (aka the weapon used to pierce Christ on the cross), currently in the hands of a Mexican peasant -- Francis Lawrence's film is basically another formulaic action film riddled with violence. It's also one that's only fitfully interesting since we've seen most of this before, when the gory bits aren't positively wince-inducing.

The film has a noirish feel, and beyond the hocus pocus Reeves radiates something of the persona of a world-weary private eye of the Raymond Chandler school. Weisz, with her Brooke Shields' good looks, is OK as the love interest. Swinton's Gabriel is reminiscent of Emma Thompson's angel turn in "Angels in America," but whether she's actually supposed to be a woman is never truly explained.

"Only in the time of horror can you find your noblest self," Gabriel informs Constantine, emblematic of the film's poppycock philosophy.

This film contains graphic violence with attendant gore, some rough and crude language, and some sacrilegious imagery. The USCCB Office for Film & Broadcasting classification is L -- limited adult audience, films whose problematic content many adults would find troubling. The Motion Picture Association of America rating is R -- restricted. [/quote]

[Fixxxer]

[quote name='musturde' date='Mar 4 2005, 11:21 PM'] This movie was pretty good but It mixed up our beliefs a lot. Now I wouldn't do what Constantine did in the last part of the movie, when he cuts himself to save the girl, but that's just part of the fiction. They may have just made it very absurd so they would make it seem fictatious and no one would get offended. I don't think many outside our faith will try to connect this movie to any of our beliefs. [/quote]
He cuts himself to stop time, so lucifer can stop his son from being born. if his son was born he would be killed then

[musturde]

[quote name='Fixxxer' date='Mar 5 2005, 03:17 AM'] He cuts himself to stop time, so lucifer can stop his son from being born. if his son was born he would be killed then [/quote]
I'm replying to someone elses comment saying they don't agree with that part being in the movie. I was trying to say that this is a fiction to begin with and that although i wouldn't do it myself, It doesn't make the movie bad.

[Fixxxer]

[quote name='musturde' date='Mar 6 2005, 12:39 AM'] I'm replying to someone elses comment saying they don't agree with that part being in the movie. I was trying to say that this is a fiction to begin with and that although i wouldn't do it myself, It doesn't make the movie bad. [/quote]
[url="http://img173.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img173&image=quote2hi.jpg"][img]http://img173.exs.cx/img173/1952/quote2hi.th.jpg[/img][/url]

use it next time mr. lazy

[musturde]

[quote name='Fixxxer' date='Mar 6 2005, 01:17 AM'] [url="http://img173.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img173ℑ=quote2hi.jpg"][img]http://img173.exs.cx/img173/1952/quote2hi.th.jpg[/img][/url]

use it next time mr. lazy [/quote]
it aint my fault... did i do that?

[Fixxxer]

you did everything!

[Didacus]

I've jst seen this movie yesterday. (yes, I am behind the itmes when it comes to blockbuster entertainment and stuff...)

My take on the movie:

Action - ok, but not extraordinary

Plot: fair.. something you can expect from an aciton movie

Theological: HORRIBLE! the movie should almost be preceded wtih a disclaimer that it does not reflect Catholic teaching and Faith. SFD!!! The Catholic church is portrayed once again as an intransigent entity, and incompetant at that since non-faithfuls are required to perform exorcisms which a Catholic priest cannot?!?!? BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS BS


Overall, I like better the Prophecy series, who do not offend theologically since they do not refer directly to any christian denomination, and has a plot that is much better laid out.

Constantine is a 'cute' action movie... good for entertainment but nothing else really, as far as I noticed... it might be worth vewing a second time... might... but I won't hold my breath on it.... I prdict that any attempts (should they come) to make a sequel to Constantine, it would bomb miserably at the box office... but that's just me...

Smiles all around...

(oh and that critic from the priest at the start of this thread, and the comments from Socrates i think are right on the money on several key points).