MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 I hate to be knit picky [quote]kneel Audio pronunciation of "kneel" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nl) intr.v. knelt, (nlt) or kneeled kneel·ing, kneels To go down or rest on one or both knees.[/quote] Thats why I asked. As far as this debate, the universal norm is definitve. It tells us where to look. The place to look isn't defeinitive. Rebelling against the norm for the sake of doing so is wrong however. Doing it for reasons tied to greater reverance isn't disrespectful and shouldn't be treated as such. I have agreed with Cam on most of this. I'm afraid I'm going to turn into a Cam Jr. at this rate, but again he seems right. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) "such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. " This is for people who for some reason just can't handle standing and need it personally explained to them, they just can't seem to do what they are asked the first time. Why should we expect priests to say the Mass properly if WE can't do our part properly? Edited February 21, 2005 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 the priest can use different Eucharistic prayers without being wrong. We, in that same light, can use different forms of reception without being wrong. That document you quote pretains only to the diocese of Pittsburgh. I've posted what my own diocese says about it. It doesn't include anything about the actions having to be addressed pastorally. It just states that I cannot be denied Communion, and if I am no tbeing denied Communion then I am not in the wrong. There is no call for me to avoid this posture in receiving Communion. In Pittsburgh, it maybe different, but under Bishop Galeon I'm fine. Another question, is the Blood of Christ received while kneeling as well? God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fides_et_Ratio Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 "well it doesn't explicitly say this, so that makes it okay" seems to be the attitude here. Well I respect the intent, I'm not sure that opting for "implicit allowance" is what was had in mind. ...especially in light of the fact that a parish in my diocese had to receive special permission to mandate kneeling as the norm and have communicants kneel along an altar rail for communion (and no, it's not a Tridentine Mass, it's N.O.) The GIRM doesn't explictly say that I can't lie prostrate in front of the altar during the consecration, does that mean I should do it in a spirit of piety and then explain my actions by claiming that "the GIRM doesn't explictly say..."? It's not about pushing the rules, or edging up as close the line as we can get. When I'm not at the parish that kneels at the altar rail, I make a profound bow before I receive (standing)... though I love kneeling, and the idea it conveys, kneeling is simply not what the Bishops chose to implement. I respect that, even if I disagree with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) Are you comparing something that isn't in the GIRM (lieing prostrate before the alter) to something that is deemed acceptable as a form of receiving (kneeling)? It may no tbe the norm, but it's acceptable here. It's a matter of reverance. It is really hard to imagine it but I think there is just so much more reverance in being on your knees before the Lord. My question about the Blood of Christ is still out there, I have no idea. God bless, Mikey Edited February 21, 2005 by MichaelFilo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaMercer Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 I disagree with this statement in some instances: [quote])Outwards signs of reverance cause (even if unnoticed) a greater understanding of what is happening.[/quote] If you were at my parish, and I saw you kneel before Christ as you receive communion, I would know what you were doing. However, I would venture to say that probably at LEAST 50% of the people would not have a CLUE, be made to feel uncomfortable, and certainly NOT understand what is happening in a greater sense. I'm not saying that the goal here is to make everybody comfortable, I'm just staying that there is potential for people to feel inadequate by standing, which our bishops have said is a-ok. I'm not sure how I personally feel about the issue, I'll have to think on it. I do prefer to kneel at the alter rail, which I've done before. But, I don't feel like it was anymore profound. I'd be interested in hearing more about what convinced you that this is the *best* way to receive the holy Eucharist. THis is an interesting topic. My DH used to kneel to receive, but the priest asked him to stop. eep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 20 2005, 08:40 PM'] The Church says we are to recieve standing. Yes we can recieve kneeling if we put personal opinion [b]before[/b] what the church asks us to do, but why would you? Why is obedience such a difficult concept? [/quote] Didn't the Church release a document saying that it's okay to recieve Jesus while kneeling? (this was posted on the phorum I believe) [url="http://www.diocesereport.com/diocese_report/news/rome_communion_letter.shtml"]http://www.diocesereport.com/diocese_repor...on_letter.shtml[/url] [url="http://www.tldm.org/vatican%20letter.htm"]http://www.tldm.org/vatican%20letter.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 It all started with a little website called flyfreeministries.org. I went to the traditionalism forum (not a big woop for me, I try to be as traditional within acceptable Church guidelines as I can) and found quite a debate about hand communion. It got me interested in hearing about receiving while kneeling. The Novus Ordo came up and how it didn't accomodate for those who wanted to kneel to receive, because of the line and the walking, it is awkward to walk up, kneel, receive, and go on. I thought about this. It idnd't accomodate a kneeling person. I played with the idea for a moment. If I believe God is in the Eucharist, would I stand before God? My answer was No, I wouldn't. I'd receive while kneeling because I am commanded to receive his Body and Blood, but I am not worthy to stand up before him. I used to genuflect before receiving, but I was told it wasn't proper here in the states (on this site). My intrest has been in me for a while. I can contemplate the mystery while standing, but I cannot explain it by being on an equal level with Jesus Christ by standing. The more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a good idea. Then a something struck me, alot of people receive Communion without really caring or contemplating the mystery before them. I was one of those people. If you give people something to think about (because kneeling while receiving shows inferiority in the recipient, not the equality expressed on being at an equal level with He who is being received). I am not doing it for everyone else though, but that I don't see a negative reaction in doing it, only the room for a more positive one in those around me. It was only when you brought up that some people would be uncomfortable that I am considering it. I think I'll probably end up with the realiziation that their discomfort is from not understanding the reverance towards the Eucharist, because they don't think of the Mystery anymore, or are incapable of understanding the Faith because of mortal sin. It isn't a bad thing to ge tpeople thinking, and a sa young person maybe other young people will be intrested too. I hope that long-winded response conveyed the central reaosn : That I want to show due reverance as best as I can to the Eucharist; and I don't believe it will have a negative effect on those around me but instead a positive one (even though other's reactions aren't my concern). God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Thank you Mustarde. You should refrain from ever referencing that second site though. It supports a Marian appiration that isn't supported by the Church and is clearly pro-traditionalist in the assertations of the appirition(Our lady of the Roses, Bayside, NY) I had a terrible loop in following in that mistake. The letter seems legit. Thank you for that. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Check with your parish. It's not wrong, just a personal thing. I guess it would take too long to give communion if everyone kneeled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaMercer Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 I agree that other people's reactions aren't your concern. And I agree that you have good intentions. In fact, I whole heartedly agree with your reasoning (thanks for posting it), being that you would not stand before your God. I have thought on that before. I just suppose that since I've seen my DH do this before, you shouldn't be shocked by people's reactions. However, I've thought on this issue before, now that you word it the way that you did. Life would change in a HUGE way if people always were aware of the mystery. Driving by a church, walking by the tabernacle, being seated in the pew in the front next to an EM during communion - all these things deserve equal reverence but, like you said, people are not aware of the mystery in their midst. I think it is a lack of understanding. I say, good for you. I am not as brave.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Thank you both musturde and Andrea. I am ony doing it becaue now I've thought about it and it really came back into full realization upon reading that forum on flyfreeministries.org. As for musturde, thankyou for the little comment about the holding of hands during the PaterNoster (Our Father). It was something I was a bit confused about. By the way Musturde, you are all linked up and everything, way to go dude. People who have links are much cooler then the rest of us . As for you Andrea, it's far from bravery, I usually don't recognize I'm surrounded by people during Mass when I begin to contemplate what is being said and what is happening before my eyes. Its far from brave to show reverence to God in a Church. I think anyone could do it. My real test, as I'm sure it is for everyone else, is to be able to show reverence to God in our actions and how we defend him before others. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musturde Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 21 2005, 01:45 AM'] Thank you both musturde and Andrea. I am ony doing it becaue now I've thought about it and it really came back into full realization upon reading that forum on flyfreeministries.org. As for musturde, thankyou for the little comment about the holding of hands during the PaterNoster (Our Father). It was something I was a bit confused about. By the way Musturde, you are all linked up and everything, way to go dude. People who have links are much cooler then the rest of us . As for you Andrea, it's far from bravery, I usually don't recognize I'm surrounded by people during Mass when I begin to contemplate what is being said and what is happening before my eyes. Its far from brave to show reverence to God in a Church. I think anyone could do it. My real test, as I'm sure it is for everyone else, is to be able to show reverence to God in our actions and how we defend him before others. God bless, Mikey [/quote] No prob dude, i think the Church just doesn't suggest the holding of hands during the Our Father. I don't think they're against it completely but i could be wrong. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur10.htm"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur10.htm[/url] [url="http://www.sunstar.com.ph/speak_out/view_column.php?tauth=Abraham%20Llera"]http://www.sunstar.com.ph/speak_out/view_c...Abraham%20Llera[/url] The kneeling isn't wrong but i guess i can see why a parish wouldn't allow it. I guess it relies what your priest says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) [quote]I guess it would take too long to give communion if everyone kneeled? [/quote] Actually, it doesn't take any longer at all. That is the reasoning for an altar rail. The people are stationary and the priest/EMHC are in motion. Although, who cares if it takes 5 minutes longer. I have lived in parishes that do both....I have distributed Holy Commuion in both. If I had to venture a guess, kneeling would be faster, because as the faithful kneel, they do not stick out their hands, make a step insert Jesus, make the sign of the cross, then move on. They simply receive, get up and move on. The reverence isn't exactly the same, those who kneel, IMHO tend to receive more reverently, perhaps it is because they are in a submissive position perhaps not, but the perception remains. [quote]Why should we expect priests to say the Mass properly if WE can't do our part properly?[/quote] How is it improper? It isn't. The bishops say as much. The faithful are not to be denied if they receive kneeling. I think that the misunderstanding is that the idea of catechesis is taken as a corrective action.....it is not. Catechesis is teaching as to why one is doing what one is doing. It shouldn't be looked upon as a slap on the wrist, but rather...."You receive on your knees, this is why you receive on your knees." Cam Jr., oops, I mean Mikey makes a great point, actually he makes two: 1. [quote]the priest can use different Eucharistic prayers without being wrong. We, in that same light, can use different forms of reception without being wrong.[/quote] 2. [quote]If I believe God is in the Eucharist, would I stand before God? My answer was No, I wouldn't. I'd receive while kneeling because I am commanded to receive his Body and Blood, but I am not worthy to stand up before him.[/quote] Mikey, you ask about receiving the Precious Blood on your knees? You most certainly can. It is just as acceptable as genuflecting or the profound bow. So, ultimately, can we receive on our knees? I would still say so, based upon the reasoning I gave earlier. The US bishops have not given a definitive statement. Which is also what I said. One may exercise judgment in this matter, much like reception in the hand or on the tongue. Redemptionis Sacramentum no. 91: [quote]Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.[/quote] Cam42 Edited February 21, 2005 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 CAM42, the Conference of Bishops did not dodge anything. Did you read the information that I provided to you? The sentence that you keep referring back to has been amended. The Conference of Bishops has definitively stated that standing is the norm. If you do not wish to stand then you should seek pastoral counsel. Again, no one is saying that you must stand. But that does not change the fact that standing is the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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