cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2005, 09:02 PM'] There has been no definitive statement on this action. It is said in the [i]GIRM[/i] no. 160: And this is affirmed in [i]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/i] no. 90: All the bishops have said on this is that due reverence should be given, if I deem that it most reverent to kneel, then it is so. The most recent document on reception of Holy Communion is silent, it is [i]Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion Under Both Kinds in the Dioceses of the United States of America.[/i] So, I would say this....if you wanna make your prayer bones hurt at the reception of Holy Communion, bruise them. I do, because it is the most reverent way to receive. Hands down......(literally)!!!!! LOL Cam42 [/quote] The Church says we are to recieve standing. Yes we can recieve kneeling if we put personal opinion [b]before[/b] what the church asks us to do, but why would you? Why is obedience such a difficult concept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]The Church says we are to recieve standing.[/quote] Nope...show me where the defference is to be given to standing as opposed to kneeling. IF none is given, then tradition would take precedence. The Church in America makes no definitive statement. Therefore the option is left to the communicant, much like that of receiving on the tongue or in the hand. If the option is not decided upon, then the option is up to us. Either way is acceptable. I simply give an argument for the affirmative. I would watch it before I start with the disobedience shouts, I am not being so....if the option is mine, which it is, I will exercise it how I see fit. That is not being disobedient. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [url="http://www.diopitt.org/socialconcerns/GIRM2000.pdf"]http://www.diopitt.org/socialconcerns/GIRM2000.pdf[/url] page 24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Well.. the GIRM seems pretty clear that kneeling isn't to be used in the US, since it says that a person should be explained as to why it's not the norm. I'd assume you can't go back and do it again without being disobedient, although you'd still be able to receive. Hmm... I can't wait till I can drive and I can just go to a Tridentine Mass of some sort.. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Well, The next time I am in Pittsburgh, I will stand....until then.....my prayer bones will ache. However, it is a deviation from the norm as established in the preface. Which says: [quote]Sections in the plain boxes....indicate differences or clarifications in this text from the previous version of the [i]Institutio[/i]. (Ordo of Mass; page 1)[/quote] On a very real level, this means that it is a diocesan adaptation. So, the universal still holds in other places. Again, the bishops have left it to the individual dioceses to decide. I will abide by whatever diocese I am in. That is obedience. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]8. The norm for the reception of Holy Communion is standing. Communicants should not be denied Communion because they kneel. When receiving, the communicant bows the head as a gesture of reverence before receiving. The sign of reverence is made before receiving each of the sacred species.[/quote] Thats what I got off of my diocese's site. I imagine it's an all clear for me. God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2005, 08:48 PM'] Nope...show me where the defference is to be given to standing as opposed to kneeling. IF none is given, then tradition would take precedence. The Church in America makes no definitive statement. Therefore the option is left to the communicant, much like that of receiving on the tongue or in the hand. If the option is not decided upon, then the option is up to us. Either way is acceptable. I simply give an argument for the affirmative. I would watch it before I start with the disobedience shouts, I am not being so....if the option is mine, which it is, I will exercise it how I see fit. That is not being disobedient. Cam42[/quote] The US Bishops have said that standing is the norm. In other words, standing is the tradition. I don't understand why you would say that kneeling is the tradition anyway. In the Us we have been standing for Communion for about thirty years now. As I understand it, one of the reasons for standing during Communion is because it is more in keeping with the practices of the early Church. The Holy Father in his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia wrote, "I consider it my duty, therefore to appeal urgently that the liturgical norms for the celebration of the Eucharist be observed with great fidelity. These norms are a concrete expression of the authentically ecclesial nature of the Eucharist; this is their deepest meaning. Liturgy is never anyone's private property, be it of the celebrant or of the community in which the mysteries are celebrated." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]The US Bishops have said that standing is the norm.[/quote] Show me where. I can guarantee that there has been no definitive statement made. It is simply left to the individual diocese. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 20 2005, 09:49 PM'] Show me where. I can guarantee that there has been no definitive statement made. It is simply left to the individual diocese. Cam42[/quote] You have already answered the question in your previous references. Redemptionis Sacramentum no. 90: “The faithful should receive Communion kneeling or standing, as the Conference of Bishops will have determined,” with its acts having received the recognitio of the Apostolic See. “ GIRM 160 is exactly that determination by the Conference of Bishops which has received the recognitio of the Apostlic See GIRM 160: "The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing." No one is saying that you can not receive Communion while kneeling. We are simply pointing out to you that the Conference of Bishops has said that the norm is standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 Whoa.....I guess I should read before I hit accept....I made a mistake. Here ya go....with what the GIRM really says (My Bad): GIRM no. 160: [quote]The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops. However, when they communicate standing, it is recommended that they make an appropriate gesture of reverence, to be laid down in the same norms, before receiving the Sacrament.[/quote] Here is the link: [url="http://www.vci.net/~inmanmj/library/girm2000.htm"]GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal)[/url] Boy was that a big boo boo.... There is no definitive statement.....I simply re-copied cmom's statement. Whoooopppsss!!!!!! Cam42 (not infallible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 yep And the US Conference of Bishops said standing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiclesis Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 CAM42, You need to investigate further. Try the following link. www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_posture.htm I've copied the relevant portion below: "History and Interpretation of the Norm In the 1967 document Eucharisticum mysterium (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery), the Sacred Congregation of Rites (now called the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) established that, 34. ... In accordance with the custom of the Church, the faithful may receive communion either kneeling or standing. One or the other practice is to be chosen according to the norms laid down by the conference of bishops. At the time this directive was issued the US Bishops did not establish a posture, although Communion processions with reception standing quickly became the custom throughout the United States, as they did in much of the world. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (3rd edition) gives the same legislation, stating, 160 ... The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops. Acting upon this provision of the GIRM, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) sought and obtained, in March 2002, a particular norm for the United States. 160. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. This norm seeks a single posture among communicants. The purpose spoken of in the norm is given earlier in the General Instruction" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 [quote]Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel.[/quote] In other words, I will kneel and it is acceptable. No one can deny me if I kneel. AND I am not being disobedient. Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 21, 2005 Author Share Posted February 21, 2005 Is that kneeling on one knee or both? God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 That would be both. Because the statement from the US Bishop's is about as definitive as..............well let's just say it isn't very commanding. What they are essentially saying is: Stand for Holy Communion, but don't stop anyone from kneeling. And if they do kneel, tell them why they are kneeling and let them continue to kneel. Oh yeah, standing is what we want? [quote]The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm. (Commentary on GIRM no. 160)[/quote] I still say it is not definitive. Definitive defined as: 1. Precisely defined or explicit. 2. Supplying or being a final settlement or decision; conclusive 3. Authoritative and complete It follows none of these. I still say that this is following the universal norm. which is: GIRM no. 160 [quote]The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops.[/quote] The Bishops have dodged the question in the name of appeasing everyone. Cam42 P.S. Kneeling is using both knees....genuflecting is using one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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