Girl Altar Servers?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Feb 27 2005, 06:28 AM'] but Todd, the point is that he has given an indult, so therefore, this CAN'T be an issue of Tradition.  It must be an issue of tradition.  Either that or the Church made a mistake on Revelation, which as you know, is impossible.  The point is, there is an indult to do this.  The Holy See, for example, could not give an indult to use the Gospel of Thomas, or to not believein the Immaculate Conception.  Those are matters of the Deposit of Faith, Tradition, and are therefore unchangeable.  I don't think this falls into that category.  Do I like female altar servers?  No, of course not.  I'm a seminarian and when I go home, I sit in the pews and watch Mass as a bunch of little girls serve.  I think it is absurd!  In this case, I fail to see the pastoral need, so in this case, it is probably illicit.  However, I think the time could arise where a pastoral need could be shown to be present.  I'm just saying, I wouldn't rule it out de facto. [/quote]
Oh, but it most certainly is a part of the universal Apostolic Tradition, and the indult cannot change that, because in spite of the fact that the Holy See has given this indult to the bishops of the Latin Rite -- due of course to massive disobedience within the Roman Rite after the Second Vatican Council -- the same Holy See has simultaneously forbidden the extension of this indult to the Eastern Catholic Churches. Thus, the indult, which breaks the constant tradition of the Church by allowing women to enter into the presbyterium (i.e., the sanctuary), cannot be applied at all in the Eastern Churches that are in communion with Rome. The Pope has ordered the Eastern Catholic Churches to maintain the Apostolic Tradition barring women from service at the altar, and has told them to reject any innovations to their sacred rites.

Now, we must all honestly face the crisis of the present time, and we must admit that the reason that altar girls are permitted -- for the moment -- in the Roman Rite, is that in some modern Western countries the Latin Rite has become infected with an ideological agenda contrary to the faith of the Church. This is evident to any objective observer, because the Roman Rite, like the Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, officially reserved service at the altar to men alone for 1994 years. Sadly, after the close of the Second Vatican Council a massive movement to blur the distinctions between men and women, and between the clergy and the laity, worked its way into the Western Church, and this movement promoted various innovative liturgical practices in order to undermine the faith of the Church, and the work of the Second Vatican Council. Clearly, once this anti-Christian feminist ideology dies out, the indult given in 1994 will have to be rescinded, since it obviously breaks the ancient Tradition received from the Apostles that reserves service at the altar to men alone.

God bless,
Todd

[Oik]

The issue of an indult does not mean that that which the indult is issued for is to be encouraged.

Why is it beyond reason to assume that an indult is issued to quell disobidence. Todd's point, which is valid, comprehensive and correct, is that the several current indults were issued to quell disobidence, not to "progress" the Church.

To that extent, I concur.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' date='Feb 27 2005, 03:51 AM'] Peanut butter and jelly! Could you please argue your point in a way that is a little more respectful of the female sex like others have done here? Maybe I'm being too touchy but that wordage of "knowing our place" comes across as incredibly demeaning. [/quote]
sorry Ash Wednesday...I know it sounded worse than I meant it to. Women do have their own unique place. They can have children and that's something men can't ever do. Of course some women might not call that a fair trade... . When it comes to issues like these I don't have much patience and say things a little too bluntly, I suppose. I would have said the same thing about a man trying to run in a beauty pageant.
I think Jakedubbleya clarified it for me. by the way, Hi Jake.
I agree with Apoth here about the disobedience issue, but I think I'm going to count just how many times in this thread he has said he's glad that he's in the East

[Ash Wednesday]

It's all good! You're not alone in coming across wrong, I've done it many times here m'self.

[Micheal5403]

Did any one read my post? Are my views wrong? Please give your imput.

[Cam42]

Michael,

[quote]I don't think that it is just a "tool" for vocations.[/quote]

You are quite right, it isn't a merely a tool, but rather an extension of the minor order of acolyte. This was stated in an earlier post.

[quote]If the Pope and the bishops say it's okay, then it's okay.[/quote]

There are circumstances in which it is ok. But again there must be a sufficent reason and need. It is not something to be arbitrarily allowed. This too was discussed earlier in this thread.

[quote]I believe that serving mass is a way for anyone to become closer to God and to get to know Him better.[/quote]

This is not the intention of serving the Mass. Active and concious participation was also discussed in this thread. One does not grow closer to God simply by sitting closer to the altar. One grows closer to God through a full concious and active participation in the Liturgy. This is more than simply "participatio activa" or outward actions, but rather it is "participatio actuosa" or an internal action. That is what brings one closer to God.

[quote]It's not any more distracting than sitting in the pews of church.[/quote]

That is your opinion and that is fine, however, I know many more teens and pre-teens who are seriously challenged by attraction to the opposite sex.

Cam42

[OneLife2Live]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Feb 20 2005, 10:38 AM']I am not completely against female altar servers, but I am disappointed that there are more girls serving than guys.[/quote]
I have been an alterserver for years. Three of my sisters have also been alterservers so far. There are always going to be distractions that one has to ignore while in church, especially when serving. As for wanting more boys to serve, they need to be the ones to step up and serve our Lord. I fully believe that it is just as important for girls to be able to alter serve as it is for boys. I know that alter serving has helped me a great deal and I wish that all who
[b]Choose[/b] to serve God will be blessed in many ways. Serving is a great experience for both sexes and female servers should not be frowned upon.

+GOD BLESS+
~LEAH

[OneLife2Live]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Feb 27 2005, 09:31 PM']QUOTE 
It's not any more distracting than sitting in the pews of church.

That is your opinion and that is fine, however, I know many more teens and pre-teens who are seriously challenged by attraction to the opposite sex.
[/quote]
First of all, church is [b]NOT[/b] the place to be thinking about the opposite sex. If one cannot take their mind off of the things of this world long enough to listen to Gods word and really pay attention, the Church is going to have some serious problems. I understand we are all human and hormones are raging in those preteen and teen years but really, can we not love our God enough to focus all our attention on [b]HIM[/b] and forget about all that is around us. God has given us all we need and all he asks is that we in return devote time to him daily and put aside all things [b]BUT HIM[/b].
Back to the alter server business, on the alter during mass should be the the [b]LAST[/b] place ones mind should wander to the opposite sex.
+GOD BLESS+
~LEAH

[Oik]

[quote] I fully believe that it is just as important for girls to be able to alter serve as it is for boys.[/quote]

Our comformity to the Magisterium, Her Supreme Pontiff and our faith must be as such that we are not attempting to further an agenda.

Gender identicality (i made that one up) is an agenda, we as faithful Catholics must not and can not support it. Male and Female are different and not identical. Our dignigty is equal. No act should be partaken in which there is an attempt to prove otherwise.

As tgo the issue of female alter servers, again, we must really understand that this is an indult and not issued to praise the occurance. Rather, it is issued to settle disobidence to the Magisterium.

[OneLife2Live]

I am a devout Catholic and understand the importance of roles in the church. However, I still do not see what is so wrong with a female alter server. I totally understand women cannot be priests but I still stand firm with my belief that female alter servers are ok. Can someone [b]PLEASE[/b] explain to me, in simple terms if possible, what the problem of a female alter server is??????

+GOD BLESS+

~LEAH FAITH

[Jaime]

[quote]There are circumstances in which it is ok. But again there must be a sufficent reason and need. It is not something to be arbitrarily allowed.[/quote]

Excuse me Camster, but where does it say that? The GIRMstates that the bishop may permit altar servers and makes no distinction about sufficient reason and need

[quote]Although institution into the ministry of acolyte is reserved to lay men, the diocesan bishop may permit the liturgical functions of the instituted acolyte to be carried out by altar servers, men and women, boys and girls. Such persons may carry out all the functions listed in no. 100 and nos. 189-193 of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal.[/quote]

The way it is stated in the GIRM, it reads that it is at the discretion of the bishop, and can be arbitrary.

And don't let him kid you folks... he's a little sexist.

hot stuff

No longer lurking (whew)

[JP2Iloveyou]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

[quote]47. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension.119 Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these.120 Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes.121 [b]Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.122[[/b] [/quote]

This seems pretty clear and straightforward to me.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Feb 28 2005, 05:38 PM'] Straight from the horse's mouth:

[quote]47. It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers. Whenever such associations are international in nature, it pertains to the competence of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to establish them or to approve and revise their statutes. Girls or women may also be admitted to this service of the altar, at the discretion of the diocesan Bishop and in observance of the established norms.[/quote]

This seems pretty clear and straightforward to me. [/quote]
It is important to remember that the indult allowing female altar servers is applicable only in the Roman Rite, and is simply a negative permission, that is, it is an exception to the universal Apostolic Tradition of male altar service. This indult is also only allowed for true pastoral reasons, and that is why [u]Redemptionis Sacramentum[/u] says, "in observance of the established norms." These norms for the Roman Rite can be found in the original decision of the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts and in the letter of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments which clarified that no priest can be required to use female servers when he celebrates Mass, along with the other notitiae of that Congregation.

The use of altar girls, which breaks the 1994 year old Tradition of the Church, must always be seen as a permission to do a non-normative practice, and should not be seen as a positive enactment in law. As with all indults it is a permission to do something contrary to the norm. Thus, the normative practice of only allowing males to enter into the presbyterium is still in force, both in the Roman Rite and in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

As I have said several times, I hope that at some point in the future the Roman Rite will restore the ancient Apostolic practice of allowing only males to serve at the altar, because this tradition, maintained inviolate by the Eastern Catholic Churches, reflects the supernatural ordering of the sacramental life of the Church. The loss of this Apostolic Tradition in the Roman Rite is to be lamented by all; and proper catechesis concerning the roles of men and women in the supernatural order should be undertaken within the Latin Church, so that this problem can be resolved, and the proper Tradition of the Church can be restored in the western liturgy.

God bless,
Todd

[toledo_jesus]

I have a feeling that perhaps no amount of reasonable discussion will overcome the secularist viewpoint.

[Micheal5403]

[quote]This is not the intention of serving the Mass. Active and concious participation was also discussed in this thread. One does not grow closer to God simply by sitting closer to the altar. One grows closer to God through a full concious and active participation in the Liturgy. This is more than simply "participatio activa" or outward actions, but rather it is "participatio actuosa" or an internal action. That is what brings one closer to God.[/quote]

I never said the reason was because I was closer to the alter. It's more of the state of mind that I am in when I serve mass and the grace that is received. I also meant that you obtain a better understanding of the mass.