Ad orientam v. Versus populum

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 April 2010 - 08:58 PM' timestamp='1272592705' post='2102492']
Why do you believe the closed circle is not broken without the physical turn towards geographical east? I certainly understand the closed circle idea with a versus populum orientation, of course, but I don't understand how it could still exist facing a crucifix on the altar.
[/quote]

It seems that your are suggesting that the priest face the people with a crucifix on the altar in between them? Generally speaking, it seems to me that, as long as the priest faces the people, the closed circle is not broken.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='29 April 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1272593134' post='2102494']
It seems that your are suggesting that the priest face the people with a crucifix on the altar in between them? Generally speaking, it seems to me that, as long as the priest faces the people, the closed circle is not broken.
[/quote]
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I was making a point earlier not to be ambiguous, but then I got lazy and hoped it was just understood.

What I'm referring to, and what I assume the Holy Father refers to, is for the priest and congregation to face in the same direction, with a crucifix placed on the altar, even if the front of the church is not necessarily oriented towards geographical east.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='30 April 2010 - 06:48 AM' timestamp='1272646106' post='2102646']
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I was making a point earlier not to be ambiguous, but then I got lazy and hoped it was just understood.

What I'm referring to, and what I assume the Holy Father refers to, is for the priest and congregation to face in the same direction, with a crucifix placed on the altar, even if the front of the church is not necessarily oriented towards geographical east.
[/quote]

Nihil,
Nope, not quite. His solution is to put a crucifix on the altar though the celebrant will still be facing the people. They do this in most of the EWTN Masses now I think. Anyway, take a look at this picture of the Pope celebrating versus populum with crucifix on the altar and you'll see what I mean: [url="http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/04/crucifix-at-center-of-altar.html"]http://newtheologica...r-of-altar.html[/url]
It's also discussed on pp.83-84 of Cardinal Ratzinger's book. It's clear that he is talking of a cross "at the center" of the altar.


S.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Skinzo

[Apotheoun]

The best solution is to simply restore the Apostolic practice of facing east during prayer. This will also have the added benefit of removing a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox, who find the present Roman practice problematic.

[Skinzo]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 April 2010 - 08:40 AM' timestamp='1272652847' post='2102710']
The best solution is to simply restore the Apostolic practice of facing east during prayer. This will also have the added benefit of removing a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox, who find the present Roman practice problematic.
[/quote]

Well, mebbe. I'm still trying to sort this whole thing out. Have to get ahold of Louis Bouyer's book on liturgy and architecture. But Apotheoun, what do you do when so many of our churches no longer face east? Or do you favor the "liturgical east" solution? Can you tell us what specifically the eastern Fathers say on this? Are orthodox Churches always oriented towards the east?
Thanks,

S.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Skinzo

[Bennn]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 April 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1272652847' post='2102710']
The best solution is to simply restore the Apostolic practice of facing east during prayer. This will also have the added benefit of removing a new obstacle to ecumenical dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox, who find the present Roman practice problematic.
[/quote]


Much better than pushing Him in some corner like it is done where I attend the Holy Mass.

Pax Domini,
Ben

[Slappo]

Although this is fairly old...



I would like to add that I don't really see any logical reason for the Church to have ever changed from facing east.

[Slappo]

Also, there is great beauty in the priest turning towards the people and beckoning them "Let us pray." Then the priest turns towards God with the people to pray together.

He looks at them, calls them to prayer, and then turns to lead them in that prayer.

[Didymus]

[quote name='Skinzo' date='30 April 2010 - 01:37 PM' timestamp='1272649040' post='2102671']
Nihil,
Nope, not quite. His solution is to put a crucifix on the altar though the celebrant will still be facing the people. They do this in most of the EWTN Masses now I think. Anyway, take a look at this picture of the Pope celebrating versus populum with crucifix on the altar and you'll see what I mean: [url="http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2010/04/crucifix-at-center-of-altar.html"]http://newtheologica...r-of-altar.html[/url]
It's also discussed on pp.83-84 of Cardinal Ratzinger's book. It's clear that he is talking of a cross "at the center" of the altar.


S.
[/quote]

Isn't he doing this because he's facing east? I thought he did this because it's literally ad orientam and not just liturgically ad orientam (which is merely just facing with the people.)