Ad orientam v. Versus populum

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 April 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1272486956' post='2101769']
It is a good book, and I gave a Google books link to it a few pages back. It would make an excellent addition to a person's liturgical library.
[/quote]


I had it on my coffee table for a while and it seemed like everyone who stopped by would be curious and want to look at it.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='28 April 2010 - 05:03 PM' timestamp='1272485020' post='2101744']
And, you are obviously not the only one who feels this is an important issue. I've been mentally doing a survey of every Catholic church that is near me, and, in all of them, the congregation faces East. I had never noticed or thought about the reason for this before. (The fact that all the Catholic churches face East may, be due, in part, because I live in an area where most of the churches are at least 75 years old, and many of them more than 100 years old.) And, although I know that it is immaterial to you, every Anglican/Episcopal congregation in my "mental survey" also faces East.
[/quote]

Now locate St. Peters on Google Maps and check which way it faces...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='28 April 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1272515762' post='2102035']
Now locate St. Peters on Google Maps and check which way it faces...
[/quote]
It faces West, because the Constantinian basilica which existed before it had faced west, but as Fr. Bouyer pointed out in his book "Rite and Man: Natural Sacredness and Christian Liturgy," in the small number of Western Churches that were built with a westward orientation the priest stood behind the altar during the Eucharistic anaphora and the people turned toward the east, and thus turned their backs to the priest. Facing east during prayer is an Dominical Tradition which all the Apostolic Churches kept, that is, until the 1960s when the Roman Church broke with tradition.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Apotheoun

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='28 April 2010 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1272472569' post='2101587']
I would argue that Jesus is a friend of mine.

[media][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7-NOZU2iPA8[/url][/media]
[/quote]

I see where you're coming from, and you make good points. I'm going to have to think about that...

[Nihil Obstat]

Apotheoun,
in your personal theological opinion, would it be preferable (in a church which does not naturally face east) to
a) turn as a congregation and celebrant towards physical east, even if physical east is towards the back or either side of the church, or;
b) instead have the celebrant (and congregation) facing a crucifix on the centre of the altar, to represent a "spiritual east" that the Holy Father has wrote about?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='28 April 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1272517491' post='2102044']
Apotheoun,
in your personal theological opinion, would it be preferable (in a church which does not naturally face east) to
a) turn as a congregation and celebrant towards physical east, even if physical east is towards the back or either side of the church, or;
b) instead have the celebrant (and congregation) facing a crucifix on the centre of the altar, to represent a "spiritual east" that the Holy Father has wrote about?
[/quote]
I favor (a) because the eastward orientation in prayer - according to the Church Fathers (St. John Damascene, St. Basil, St. Augustine, the Apostolic Constitutions, et al.) - is an Apostolic Tradition common to the whole Church, and so I favor the restoration of that Tradition over all else, but almost anything that would put a stop to the current practice of the priest and people facing each other during prayer would be spiritually beneficial.

As I see it option (b) does not break the closed circle that presently dominates Western liturgical life and so I would not favor it; instead, I would favor having the priest turn with the people toward the apse even if that end of the Church does not face true east. This of course would only be a temporary solution pending the reorientation of Churches to their proper direction in line with the common tradition received from the Holy Apostles. Clearly, any new Churches should be built with an eastward orientation.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 April 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1272519117' post='2102049']
I favor (a) because the eastward orientation in prayer - according to the Church Fathers (St. John Damascene, St. Basil, St. Augustine, the Apostolic Constitutions, et al.) - is an Apostolic Tradition common to the whole Church, and so I favor the restoration of that Tradition over all else, but almost anything that would put a stop to the current practice of the priest and people facing each other during prayer would be spiritually beneficial.

As I see it option (b) does not break the closed circle that presently dominates Western liturgical life and so I would not favor it; instead, I would favor having the priest turn with the people toward the apse even if that end of the Church does not face true east. This of course would only be a temporary solution pending the reorientation of Churches to their proper direction in line with the common tradition received from the Holy Apostles. Clearly, any new Churches should be built with an eastward orientation.
[/quote]
Ok, good to know. To follow up; have you read Spirit of the Liturgy? I wish I had the motivation to type out the relevant chapter, but I think that would be sort of suicidal. As it is, I'm not comfortable enough with my own level of understanding to accurately paraphrase Pope Benedict's views.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 April 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1272519379' post='2102055']
Ok, good to know. To follow up; have you read Spirit of the Liturgy? I wish I had the motivation to type out the relevant chapter, but I think that would be sort of suicidal. As it is, I'm not comfortable enough with my own level of understanding to accurately paraphrase Pope Benedict's views.
[/quote]

From what I recall, Cardinal Ratzinger saw placing a crucifix on the altar between the priest and people not so much as an ideal, but rather as a compromise when true versus apsidem is not possible.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='29 April 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1272519618' post='2102059']
From what I recall, Cardinal Ratzinger saw placing a crucifix on the altar between the priest and people not so much as an ideal, but rather as a compromise when true versus apsidem is not possible.
[/quote]
Well the impression I got when reading it is that the ideal has the church itself oriented eastward, then in his opinion if that is not the case, facing a crucifix on the altar (priest and congregation facing in the same direction) is the next preference. Maybe I misunderstood what he said (last time I read this was 4am [s]last night[/s] this morning and I was skimming), but I got the impression that he views priest and congregation facing a crucifix on the altar as a form of legitimate organic development.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='28 April 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1272519379' post='2102055']
Ok, good to know. To follow up; have you read Spirit of the Liturgy? [/quote]
Yes, I have read the book.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='28 April 2010 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1272519379' post='2102055']
I wish I had the motivation to type out the relevant chapter, but I think that would be sort of suicidal. As it is, I'm not comfortable enough with my own level of understanding to accurately paraphrase Pope Benedict's views.
[/quote]
Much of the text is available on Google books: [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=PD12nSQ6CPgC&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20spirit%20of%20the%20liturgy%20ratzinger&pg=PA74#v=onepage&q=the%20spirit%20of%20the%20liturgy%20ratzinger&f=false"]"The Spirit of the Liturgy" (Chapter 3)[/url]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 April 2010 - 12:47 AM' timestamp='1272520058' post='2102068']
Yes, I have read the book.


Much of the text is available on Google books: [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=PD12nSQ6CPgC&lpg=PP1&dq=the%20spirit%20of%20the%20liturgy%20ratzinger&pg=PA74#v=onepage&q=the%20spirit%20of%20the%20liturgy%20ratzinger&f=false"]"The Spirit of the Liturgy" (Chapter 3)[/url]
[/quote]
Ah, good deal!

So if you were discussing the issue with the Holy Father, how would you address the points he makes?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 April 2010 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1272519804' post='2102064']
Well the impression I got when reading it is that the ideal has the church itself oriented eastward, then in his opinion if that is not the case, facing a crucifix on the altar (priest and congregation facing in the same direction) is the next preference.[/quote]

I do think his preference is for an eastward oriented church. However, I think that, when a church is not oriented towards geographical east, he would see the priest and people facing the in the same direction together (even if that direction happened to be north) as more ideal than the priest facing the people (even with a crucifix between them). I get this impression due to his criticism of a "self-enclosed circle". Having a crucifix upon the altar between the celebrant and people only partially solves that problem.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='29 April 2010 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1272519804' post='2102064']
Maybe I misunderstood what he said (last time I read this was 4am [s]last night[/s] this morning and I was skimming), but I got the impression that he views priest and congregation facing a crucifix on the altar as a form of legitimate organic development.
[/quote]

The impression that I got was more that he views it as a compromise than an organic development. He seemed to describe it as a way to have something like [i]ad orientem[/i] when, due to the way an altar is built, true [i]ad orientem[/i] isn't possible.

By the way, the relevant section of [i]Spirit of the Liturgy[/i] can be found online [url="http://www.adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html"]here[/url].

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='28 April 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1272520214' post='2102070']
Ah, good deal!

So if you were discussing the issue with the Holy Father, how would you address the points he makes?
[/quote]
Well, I would first have to make clear that I do not agree with his point about the cross and the eastward orientation, because - as I understand the Tradition - facing east during prayer is about facing the risen and glorified Christ, who has been crucified, but who is now and forever Pantokrator. So the crucifixion is really not the primary focus of the eastward orientation; instead, it is the resurrection and the eschaton that is the focus of Christian liturgical prayer facing east, for the liturgy is the realized Kingdom of God made manifest in divine power.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

As a second point, I do not believe that simply placing a cross on the altar between the priest and the people has the desired effect of breaking the closed circle that dominates worship in the modern Roman Rite. This closed circle also tends to overemphasize the meal aspect of the liturgy, which really should be signified during the communion rite and not during the Eucharistic anaphora, which properly recalls the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross, while also signifying the celestial worship of the Father by the Son in the Spirit.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 April 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1272520965' post='2102077']
As a second point, I do not believe that simply placing a cross on the altar between the priest and the people has the desired effect of breaking the closed circle that dominates worship in the modern Roman Rite. This closed circle also tends to overemphasize the meal aspect of the liturgy, which really should be signified during the communion rite and not during the Eucharistic anaphora, which properly recalls the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross, while also signifying the celestial worship of the Father by the Son in the Spirit.
[/quote]
Why do you believe the closed circle is not broken without the physical turn towards geographical east? I certainly understand the closed circle idea with a versus populum orientation, of course, but I don't understand how it could still exist facing a crucifix on the altar.