Ad orientam v. Versus populum

[Cam42]

[quote]humans can't consecrate. God chooses to consecrate the offerings of ordained ministers[/quote]

Incorrect my friend. The priest most certainly consecrates bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. By virtue of the indellible mark placed upon his soul....the priest can and does consecrate the Blessed Sacrament. There are only three requirements:

1. The matter is proper
2. The proper formula (words) are prayed over the matter
3. The intent of the priest is that of consecration.

As to the rest of it, I have no problem with the altar being free standing. I think that some of the most beautiful churches in the world have free standing altars; St. Peter's, St. John Lateran, The National Shrine, The St. Paul Cathedral. Although traditional altars are fine as well.

What I do not like is that there has been a mis representation of the posture of the priest as mediator. He is in "persona christi" and Christ is the mediator between humanity and the Father. When he is celebrating Mass facing the people, this is compromised.

Cam42

[Donna]

Mikey, as you walk through the last of your school years, I hope you can regularly attend a Latin Mass.

Then you shall see what you see, over time, and continue to think, pray, discern.

[StPiusVPrayForUs]

Please watch what you say I will not allow any sppx heresies on this website.


Vianney

[Donna]

Englishmen too.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Todd, Cardinal Ratzinger has discussed at length the issue of eastward facing prayer in his book [u]Spirit of the Liturgy[/u]. In it, he notes the precedent and the need for proper orientation in prayer. However, acknowledging that it may not always be possible from a structural/functional point of view, he explains that the dilemma may very well be circumvented if the crucifix is moved to a central position. The crucifix acts as our spiritual East, and when looking upon it, we are made mindful of the promise of the Second Coming. Thus, Cardinal Ratzinger argues that the role of eastward orientation can be achieved by orienting prayer in such a way that it focuses on the crucifix. In this manner, even a Liturgy that is said [i]versus populum[/i] would retain the tradition of an eastward orientation, albeit in a slightly different manner. All that need be done, in his mind, is to place the crucifix in a central position so that when facing the priest, the congregation is oriented towards the crucifix and that when facing the people, the priest is also oriented in the same manner.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Donna]

Then why not place the tabernacle between the people and priest?

Oh, I get it, too clumsy/difficult.

Do ppl realize how much more time we'd have on our hands, and what else we' might be discussing if

a) the altars/alter rails, etc; had been retained

or

b) the little housewives would just give up that durn Old Mass!

Edited February 19, 2005 by Donna

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Feb 19 2005, 12:13 AM'] Todd, Cardinal Ratzinger has discussed at length the issue of eastward facing prayer in his book [u]Spirit of the Liturgy[/u]. In it, he notes the precedent and the need for proper orientation in prayer. However, acknowledging that it may not always be possible from a structural/functional point of view, he explains that the dilemma may very well be circumvented if the crucifix is moved to a central position. The crucifix acts as our spiritual East, and when looking upon it, we are made mindful of the promise of the Second Coming. Thus, Cardinal Ratzinger argues that the role of eastward orientation can be achieved by orienting prayer in such a way that it focuses on the crucifix. In this manner, even a Liturgy that is said [i]versus populum[/i] would retain the tradition of an eastward orientation, albeit in a slightly different manner. All that need be done, in his mind, is to place the crucifix in a central position so that when facing the priest, the congregation is oriented towards the crucifix and that when facing the people, the priest is also oriented in the same manner.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff [/quote]
Yes, I've read Ratzinger's book, and although he presents some interesting ideas about solving the present problems in the Roman Rite, I think that a better solution is for the West to simply return to its liturgical roots. In Western Churches there always used to be a large crucifix on the top of the rood beam (the beam that separated the sanctuary from the nave), and yet in spite of this, the priest always faced [i]ad orientem[/i], because the crucifix was not the focal point of the worshipping community, rather the eschatological east was, for Christ will return from the east, He will not return through the crucifix. So, the best solution to the present situation in the Roman Rite is not to have a small crucifix set on the altar between the priest and the people; but rather, it would be best to once again have the priest, in conformity with the inspired Tradition of the Apostles, turn east with the people during the Eucharistic sacrifice and thus offer the one all holy oblation of Christ to the transcendent Father. The modern Roman Rite sends mixed messages about the sacrifice of the Mass, because it presents a closed circle, where the priest and the people offer the prayers and sacrifice to each other. The answer to this problem of immanence is for the priest, as the head of the liturgical assembly, to turn and face east with the rest of the People of God, thus leading the entire assembly in prayer to the transcendent God, the source of all life and being. This re-orientation of the priest toward the eschatological east would signify the truth that he, as the icon of Christ the priest, is standing at the head of his people and is marching with them to the Parousia of the Lord That being said, the present situation in the Roman Rite is a novel practice (i.e., having the priest face the people during prayer) never before seen in the Church; and so, I pray that at some point in the future the Roman Rite will restore the Apostolic Tradition of the priest offering the Eucharistic sacrifice to the Father through the Son and in the power of the Holy Spirit, which is clearly signified by the priest celebrant's [i]ad orientem[/i] orientation in prayer.

The irony in all of this is that the Vatican itself has forbidden the adoption of the [i]versus populum[/i] position in prayer (i.e., prayer facing the people) in the Eastern Catholic Churches, and has instructed the hierarchs of the east to suppress this novelty wherever it has arisen.

God bless,
Todd

[MichaelFilo]

Apotheun, while I appreciate your speaking for the Eastern Churchs, some have changed with the 1970's changes. The Syriach Church is one... I am sure there maybe others to be found.

God bless,
Mikey

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='Feb 19 2005, 08:09 AM'] Apotheun, while I appreciate your speaking for the Eastern Churchs, some have changed with the 1970's changes.  The Syriach Church is one... I am sure there maybe others to be found.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
Yes, I understand that some of the Eastern Churches have changed their practices, and that is precisely why the Vatican has ordered them to restore their former traditions. The Maronites have been heavily Latinized, and they will have a hard time in the future, because they, like all the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, have been told that they are to de-latinize their liturgies and restore their ancient usages. The Ruthenian Church that I belong to was just ordered by the Metropolitan Archeparch to restore the practice of giving communion to babies. Sadly the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome have been affected by the Latin Rite's present crisis, but the Holy Father has ordered all the Eastern Churches to follow their own ancient traditions and expunge the various Latin influences within their liturgies. Now, as I said above, this means that the Maronites, and various other Eastern Churches, are going to have to educate their members on the true nature of the Eastern Christian Tradition.

God Bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

The Maronite Church is a case in point. The Maronites are Eastern in name only, because they have adopted Latin vestments for their clergy, they use unleavened bread, which is contrary to the ancient practice of the Eastern Churches, and their Church buildings look no different than a Latin Rite parish, i.e., they don't normally have an iconostasis, and in addition their icons don't look Eastern, rather the images used in their Churches look no different than those used in Latin parishes. Moreover, the Maronites often have statues in their Churches, which is yet again a Western practice, etc., etc., etc. The Maronites are going to have a hard time doing what the Pope has [i]ordered[/i] them to do, i.e., become fully and completely Eastern in their liturgical life and in their spiritual and theological traditions.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

Another area where the Eastern Catholic Churches must work in order to restore their own ancient heritage is in theology. The Palamite distinction between God's essence and His uncreated eneriges must once again become a central focus of Eastern Trinitarian and Christological theology. Moreover, the Eastern focus upon the ontological nature of [i]theosis[/i] (i.e., deification) as a true participation in God's uncreated energies must be fully reasserted and the Western juridical focus on justifcation by grace must be de-emphasized. But the re-emphasis upon these two theological doctrines is only the beginning, because many other things will have to be done in order to restore the Eastern Churches to their unique spiritual and theological traditions; but the Pope knows that this is necessary, and that is why he has insisted upon the de-latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

God bless,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

The Ukrainian Catholic Church, both in the Ukraine and in Canada, has begun ordaining married men to the deaconate and the priesthood, and in doing this they have restored an Eastern Christian practice that was canonically sanctioned at the Trullan Synod. Even the Ruthenian Church in the United States now has married men, and young men engaged to be married, studying at their seminary in Pittsburgh. The Eastern Churches must restore their own distinctive traditions, and in this great work of restoration they have the support of the Pope.

[p0lar_bear]

If we are going to say that it is about facing east, then we should face east; Not "proverbial" or "spiritual" east, but actual east.

The fact is, a large percentage of churches (yes, those built before the 20th century) do not have the priest facing east when he faces the altar. I can only think of the names of two churches in Rome off hand that facing away from the people is actually facing anywhere close to east (St. Paul Outside the Walls is the only one of the 4 Major Basilicas to be oriented this way). One the other hand, I can think of at least a dozen offhand that would have the priest facing somewhere other than east.

Based on actual practice, I'd have to say that facing the east has very little to do with the Roman liturgy past the 5th or 6th centuries.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Feb 19 2005, 10:05 AM']If we are going to say that it is about facing east, then we should face east; Not "proverbial" or "spiritual" east, but actual east.

The fact is, a large percentage of churches (yes, those built before the 20th century) do not have the priest facing east when he faces the altar. I can only think of the names of two churches in Rome off hand that facing away from the people is actually facing anywhere close to east (St. Paul Outside the Walls is the only one of the 4 Major Basilicas to be oriented this way). One the other hand, I can think of at least a dozen offhand that would have the priest facing somewhere other than east.[/quote]
Yes, I agree, Churches should be built with the sanctuary at the eastern end, and not simply a "spiritual" east, but true geographical east, because that is the ancient Apostolic Tradition. It is of course true, as Fr. Louis Bouyer stated in many of his books on the liturgy, that several of the Churches in the city of Rome (and a few places in North Africa) had the apse in the Western end, but as he also pointed out, in those Churches the priest stood behind the altar facing east, and when the prayers were recited, the Deacon would call out to the people telling them to turn and face east. These commands of the Deacon are found in missals dating back to the 5th century, and so, again I emphasize the fact that there has never been a time where the priest and the people faced each other in prayer. They faced each other during the readings and the dialogue portions of the liturgy, but not the prayers, and especially not the supreme prayer of prayers, the anaphora.

In those Churches that have sadly been built without a proper eastern orientation, having the priest celebrate the Eucharistic liturgy [i]ad apsidem[/i] would be a sufficient corrective to the deficient phenomenological sign presently used in the modern Roman Rite (i.e., having the priest facing the people while praying).

[quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Feb 19 2005, 10:05 AM']Based on actual practice, I'd have to say that facing the east has very little to do with the Roman liturgy past the 5th or 6th centuries.[/quote]
The vast majority of Churches in the West were built with an eastward orientation, but of course when the geographical location was not amenable for that orientation, due to the terrain, a different direction was chosen. But regardless, the people and the priest never faced each other in prayer. In restoring this ancient tradition of the Church to the Roman Rite, Latin parishes should be encouraged when building new Church structures to have the sanctuary at the eastern end. But this of course would require the restoration of the concept of the "sanctuary" which is often missing in the modern Roman Rite.

[Apotheoun]

As Cardinal Ratzinger himself has said: "In the early Church, prayer towards the east was regarded as an [i]apostolic tradition[/i]. We cannot date exactly when this turn to the east, the diverting of the gaze from the Temple, took place, but it is certain that it goes back to the earliest times and was always regarded as an [i]essential characteristic[/i] of Christian liturgy (and indeed of private prayer)." [Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, [u]The Spirit of the Liturgy[/u], p. 68]

I pray that someday the Apostolic Tradition of praying [i]ad orientem[/i] is restored in the Roman Rite.