Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:40 AM'] If the priest must face east, what would a priest do who was saying Mass and standing exactly at the north pole or south pole? [/quote] Aren't there still East and West at the poles? In any event, the point of facing East was originally to face Jerusalem, and they can still do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullnaChinaShop Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 18 2005, 11:37 AM'] Aren't there still East and West at the poles? [/quote] Nope. If you are at the North Pole alll you can do is face south and if at the South Pole all you can do is face north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='BullnaChinaShop' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:16 PM'] Nope. If you are at the North Pole alll you can do is face south and if at the South Pole all you can do is face north. [/quote] But you can face the Eastern and Western hemispheres. I think you can face North and East or North and West at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullnaChinaShop Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Feb 18 2005, 01:00 PM'] But you can face the Eastern and Western hemispheres. I think you can face North and East or North and West at the same time. [/quote] This really depends on what frame of reference you are using to define your directions. If you are using a local frame of reference then you can only face south or north depending on the pole, but if you use a fixed global frame of reference then you could still have an east or west at the poles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Feb 18 2005, 07:27 AM'] JMJ 2/18 - First Friday of Lent I don't mean to sound like I'm contradicting anyone, but the tomb of St. Nicholas the Wonder-worker in Bari, Italy, has always been built so that the priest faces the people during the Liturgy - whether the people faced him, I know not (as the church was not built with pews). I remember being struck upon sight of this, that's all. [/quote] In Churches built with a westward orientation (i.e., buildings with the apse on the western end and where the priest would stand behind the altar looking east and facing the people), it is the people who would turn and face east during the prayers. Thus, the people would have their backs to the priest during the prayers. The priest and the people have never, in history of the Church (until 1970), faced each other while praying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='theculturewarrior' date='Feb 18 2005, 07:26 AM'] It's a tradition with a capital T? [/quote] Yes, it is. As St. John Damascene said, ". . . we prostrate ourselves toward the east. It is an unwritten tradition, deriving from the Apostles." [cf. Congregation for the Eastern Churches, [u]Instruction on Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the CCEO[/u], no. 107] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 18, 2005 Author Share Posted February 18, 2005 Raphael, you are on the right track. And as far as the historical, Apotheoun is on the money. Look at the wording of General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM)....It presumes that the priest is facing God with the people. In fact, the 1970 Missal instructs the priest to turn to the people at specific moments of the Mass, then to turn back to the altar. Look up the references in the Missal, No. 2. Further confirmation appears in the General Instruction on the Roman Missal, Nos. 122, 124, 146, 154, 157, 158, 165. [quote]....At the anamnesis or memorial, the priest, addressing God in the name of all the people, offers in thanksgiving the holy and living sacrifice: the Church's offering and the Victim whose death has reconciled us with God. The priest also prays that the body and blood of Christ may be a sacrifice acceptable to the Father, bringing salvation to all the world....(GIRM no.2)[/quote] [quote]The priest then goes to the chair. After the opening liturgical song, and with all standing, the priest and faithful make the sign of the cross. The priest says: In the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; the people answer: Amen. Then, [i]facing the people and extending his hands,[/i] the priest greets all present, using one of the formulas indicated. He or another minister may give the faithful a very brief introduction to the Mass of the day. (GIRM no.124)[/quote] [quote][i]The priest returns to the middle of the altar and, facing the people and first extending and then joining his hands,[/i] he invites the people to pray: Pray, brothers and sisters. The people stand and make their response: May the Lord accept this sacrifice. Then the priest, with his hands outstretched, says the prayer over the gifts. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.(GIRM no.146)[/quote] [quote]Then the priest, with his hands extended, says aloud: Lord Jesus Christ, you said. [i]After this prayer is concluded, extending and then joining his hands, he gives the greeting of peace while facing the people and says:[/i] The peace of the Lord be with you always. The people answer: And also with you. Then the priest may add: Let us offer one another a sign of peace. (GIRM no.154)[/quote] [quote][i]At the conclusion of the prayer, the priest genuflects, takes the Eucharistic bread, and, holding it slightly above the paten or above the chalice, while facing the people,[/i] says: This is the Lamb of God. With the people he adds, once only: Lord, I am not worthy. (GIRM no.157)[/quote] [quote][i]Next, facing the altar, the priest says inaudibly:[/i] May the body of Christ bring me to everlasting life, and reverently consumes the body of Christ. Then he takes the chalice, saying inaudibly: May the blood of Christ bring me to everlasting life, and reverently drinks the blood of Christ. (GIRM no.158)[/quote] [quote][i]Then, standing at the altar or at the chair, and facing the people, the priest says:[/i] Let us pray. There may be a brief period of silence, unless this has been already observed immediately after communion. With hands outstretched, he recites the Prayer after Communion, at the end of which the people make the acclamation Amen. (GIRM no.165)[/quote] I know the arguments against this line of reasoning, but facing the people is one direction and according to no. 158, facing the altar is another....but I think that the guidelines governing the Mass, of which nothing may be changed not even one word (according to Canon Law) apply. Anyhow, those are my thoughts......I know that many out there may think that this is rubrically rigid, but then again, it is the Mass. Thoughts? Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 The practice of facing [i]versus populum[/i] is no doubt derived from a growing understanding of God present in the liturgical assembly and the fact that the priest is part of the liturgical assembly and not separate from it. However, the practice is an incorrect way of showing that. The practice turns the priest, rather than the action of the priest, into the object of attention -- when the priest faces [i]ad orientem[/i], he faces God in solidarity with the People of God and the object of attention is God, rather than the priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelFilo Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Would it be wrong for a Western Rite priest to face the East nowadays? This seems like something that I will consider upon entering the priesthood. I have always faced the priest and seen the Host and Blood as the center of attention in the Eucharist-centered portion (or latter portion) of Mass. I don't imagine they'd be in my vision if the priest was turned around. This also led me to see the priest a the focal point, since he stands behind the Body and Blood. His actions and the Transformation are where my focus is at. I thought that is what the focus is supposed to be centered on. I don't think thats necessarily wrong.... hmm God bless, Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted February 18, 2005 Author Share Posted February 18, 2005 Mikey, [quote]Would it be wrong for a Western Rite priest to face the East nowadays?[/quote] Think about this...Everytime transubstantion takes place Christ returns. Insofar as this is the case, an argument can be proposed that the priest should be facing the taberncacle in order to be facing Christ as He returns. It isn't necessarily about a physical East, but rather a mystical East. [quote]I don't imagine they'd be in my vision if the priest was turned around.[/quote] When the priest elevates the host and the chalice, as the newly consecrated Body and Blood, it is placed directly in your line of sight. [quote]This also led me to see the priest a the focal point, since he stands behind the Body and Blood.[/quote] There is a theological prinicple that the priest should not be the focal point. The priest is merely the one who consecrates. He is the mediator in the Mass, insofar as he is acting in "Persona Christi." Remember the Mass is an offering to the Father through the son, with the Holy Spirit. This theological prinicple is askew when the priest doesn't face the same direction. The sense of being a mediator is lessened. [quote]His actions and the Transformation are where my focus is at.[/quote] Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='Cam42']Think about this...Everytime transubstantion takes place Christ returns. Insofar as this is the case, an argument can be proposed that the priest should be facing the taberncacle in order to be facing Christ as He returns. It isn't necessarily about a physical East, but rather a mystical East.[/quote] This would be further complicated by the fact that most tabernacles have been moved out of the sanctuary to a side altar or a separate chapel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezic Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Feb 18 2005, 08:36 AM'] You are absolutely correct. It is an ancient axiom that a man faces the one to whom he is offering prayer. Thus, when the priest faces the people, it symbolically sends the wrong message. Phenomenologically it appears as if the priest is praying to the people, and the people are praying to the priest. It is a complete and utter confusion of liturgical signs. God bless, Todd [/quote] missed the point. My own thoughts would be that the church should look to the example of our Lord. Jesus did both, at times he would face the crowds and pray but many times he would turn away or go off by himself. I don't think there can be "wrong" way to do it. Your prayer doesn't move the direction you are looking. Should it be important to you as a sign of devotion to face any direction, why would the church stop that? TO cam42 humans can't consecrate. God chooses to consecrate the offerings of ordained ministers. Edited February 18, 2005 by jezic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Feb 18 2005, 03:26 PM'] [quote name='Cam42']Think about this...Everytime transubstantion takes place Christ returns. Insofar as this is the case, an argument can be proposed that the priest should be facing the taberncacle in order to be facing Christ as He returns. It isn't necessarily about a physical East, but rather a mystical East.[/quote] This would be further complicated by the fact that most tabernacles have been moved out of the sanctuary to a side altar or a separate chapel. [/quote] In Eastern Catholic Churches the altar is free standing, and the tabernacle, which is normally shaped to look like the Church building itself, is placed in the center of the altar. The priest is always facing the tabernacle, because during the readings he sits in the celebrants chair that is against the eastern wall behind the altar, and when he prays the prayers of the liturgy, he comes around to the western side of the altar and he turns and faces with the people toward the east. There are no side altars in Eastern Catholic Churches, nor is the tabernacle to be put off to the side or in a chapel. The tabernacle is always centrally located upon the Church's one altar of sacrifice within the sanctuary which is separated from the nave of the Church by the iconostasis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Feb 18 2005, 03:53 PM'] humans can't consecrate. God chooses to consecrate the offerings of ordained ministers. [/quote] Most certainly human beings do consecrate things to God. That is the whole point of the priesthood. God acts in, with, and through the priest, and so the priest must never be thought of as passive, because that is the Lutheran heresy. The priest acts in the person of Christ and consecrates the bread and wine into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 [quote name='jezic' date='Feb 18 2005, 03:53 PM']missed the point. My own thoughts would be that the church should look to the example of our Lord. Jesus did both, at times he would face the crowds and pray but many times he would turn away or go off by himself. I don't think there can be "wrong" way to do it. Your prayer doesn't move the direction you are looking. Should it be important to you as a sign of devotion to face any direction, why would the church stop that?[/quote] For 2,000 years the Eastern Churches (and the Western Churches until 1970) have prayed facing east in expectation of the Lord's Parousia, and this orientation in prayer is not simply a human custom, rather, it is an Apostolic Tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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